• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

Rent-A-DM

rgard

Adventurer
delericho said:
Now, why is that? I can understand not being willing to pay to play, and I can understand not permitting people to charge in your store, but why is the entire concept 'yucky'?

Surely it's just a skilled artisan offering a service that otherwise wouldn't have been available, a service that requires a degree of investment in time, dedication and talent to provide?

(I don't think I've seen the notion suggested that a DM should charge his 'regular group' to play, assuming he has such a thing. Given that one needs to exercise a skill regularly to keep it sharp, and given that that 'regular group' are likely to be friends of the DM, I can understand a distaste for such an arrangement. But the concept itself of 'pay to play'?)

Well, I personally would never do it for pay. The interaction with the players and the positive feedback from the players is pay enough for me. Maybe I don't take myself too seriously when it comes to gaming...that's not an oblique insult, I'm just being honest about my view of the game and what I expect and get from it. It would feel uncomfortable (yucky) if I was offered $ to DM or asked for it.

I honestly can't imagine a situation where we would be inclined to hire a DM. Even if nobody wanted to do it, somebody would step up and DM the group. We would still have fun (which is why we play) even if the DM goofed a bit.

I think the 'skilled artisan' DM as a commodity is a bit of a stretch. I think most groups have or will find that person who could be called a 'skilled artisan' who DMs.

That all just my perspective.

Through history we have paid people to put on a performance, whether it be musicians or storytellers or others, so yes, this could be a paying gig for somebody out there who does something similar with RPGs. If there is a demand, somebody will supply the service.

Thanks,
Rich
 

log in or register to remove this ad

rgard

Adventurer
Driddle said:
It's been my experience that coaches, teachers, craftsmen, consultants and such at the mid professional level tend to charge $30-$50 per basic "unit" of their efforts -- a music lesson, for example, or a small marble created by a glassblower. Or consider editors who charge per word, hour or page, depending on the task (and region, of course).

What would be the appropriate scale for a pro DM? Some sort of $-per-XP equation, for instance, an hourly basis, or non-specific "contribution" based on the consumer's satisfaction?

"$-per-XP"? The rich kid ends up with the highest level character? I'm having fun now.

Thanks ;)

Rich
 

delericho

Legend
Driddle said:
It's been my experience that coaches, teachers, craftsmen, consultants and such at the mid professional level tend to charge $30-$50 per basic "unit" of their efforts -- a music lesson, for example, or a small marble created by a glassblower. Or consider editors who charge per word, hour or page, depending on the task (and region, of course).

What would be the appropriate scale for a pro DM? Some sort of $-per-XP equation, for instance, an hourly basis, or non-specific "contribution" based on the consumer's satisfaction?

As I've mentioned before, I play the bagpipes, and have on occasion been paid to play at weddings, or to give lessons. In my experience, the safest thing to do is to chareg for your time (the amount you charge is justified by the skills you bring to the table, but it's not really the skills that are being paid for).

The reason for this is that if a wedding is cancelled at the last minute, the piper still wants paid. If the child refuses to do the practice necessary to actually learn, the teacher still wants paid. Similarly, if you were hired to DM all day at a GameDay, and then no-one showed up because the advertising was badly done, you would still want paid. And, if the group decide to spend the entire session quoting Monty Python at each other rather than actually gaming, you would still want paid.

(On occasion, I have been asked how much to play at the wedding, and how much for the reception. The way that works is that I would play quite a lot before the wedding, and then only a couple of tunes at the reception, so a lot of people are surprised when the price doubles for the reception. The reason for this is simple - if I play at just the wedding, I can then leave and do something else. If I do both, I have to hang around during the service, and so give up almost my entire day. That I'm not actually doing anything in that time is largely irrelevant - it's time I could be spending sleeping, watching a film, on a date, or whatever.)

The other lesson from weddings is that you should always ask to be paid in advance. Otherwise, you can get trapped at the reception because the person who should be paying you is having their meal and can't be disturbed. Alternatively, the risk exists that they might just refuse to pay. (And, for funerals, this is infinitely worse, since if you don't get paid in advance you basically have to intrude on someone's grief over something as crass as money.)

For a regular arrangement (such as teaching) this is much less of an issue.

rgard said:
that's not an oblique insult, I'm just being honest about my view of the game and what I expect and get from it.

I didn't take it as such :) For the most part, I'm in the same position. As I may have said in an earlier posts, there are some things I do for money, and some I do for fun. In general, I prefer not to be paid for doing what I do "for fun", which currently includes DMing.

If approached for some sort of special event one-off deal, though, I would consider it.

rgard said:
I honestly can't imagine a situation where we would be inclined to hire a DM. Even if nobody wanted to do it, somebody would step up and DM the group. We would still have fun (which is why we play) even if the DM goofed a bit.

I can only see a couple of scenarios where a group might. The first is if everyone in the group wanted to play, but all really hated the idea of DMing. (Or, perhaps, they had money to burn, but a real shortage of time.)

More likely, I can see a gamestore organising some sort of GameDay, and wanting some really top-notch DMs. And the third is if a group want to be entertained for some sort of special event.

rgard said:
I think the 'skilled artisan' DM as a commodity is a bit of a stretch. I think most groups have or will find that person who could be called a 'skilled artisan' who DMs.

Personally, I feel that a lot of people (even DMs) under-estimate just how much effort it takes to run games, much less really good games. And I think many groups who do have really good DMs underestimate just how much difference having such a DM actually makes. Probably because the really good DMs make the whole thing look effortless when, in reality, it is anything but.

rgard said:
Through history we have paid people to put on a performance, whether it be musicians or storytellers or others, so yes, this could be a paying gig for somebody out there who does something similar with RPGs. If there is a demand, somebody will supply the service.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect much demand. The most likely scenario I see is something like this:

Alan, Bob, Charles, Dave and Eddy played together for years in school. However, over time they drifted apart, attending different universities, getting geographically distant jobs, and generally losing touch. None of them have gamed for years.

However, at the school reunion, they got back together, and reminisced about the 'good old days'. Someone suggested they should get together some time, and telephone numbers were exchanged.

And Bob's 35th birthday is coming up, and he thinks "let's play the game again, that would be fun." Everyone thinks it's a great idea, but there are two problems: back in the day, no-one really wanted to DM anyway (they took turns because someone had to), and anyway none of them have gamed in years, and have eBayed their books.

But, undeterred, Bob heads to his old FLGS, which has somehow survived. The new owners happen to know me, and put Bob in touch. He phones, we discuss what he wants, I prep a one-shot game, and show up with everything everyone needs (including character sheets, dice, pencils, minis, a quick recap of the rules). Problem solved.

Now, there's no link between me and Bob. He's not even a friend of a friend. So, if I'm giving up my time, it's not unreasonable for me to expect to be paid. And, assuming I do my job properly, Bob and his friends will have a good time, and consider it money well spent. And so, everyone benefits.

(It should be noted: I think something like this is the most likely pro-DM arrangement. I don't think it's terribly likely. So, it remains a hypothetical exercise.)
 

rgard

Adventurer
delericho said:
As I've mentioned before, I play the bagpipes, and have on occasion been paid to play at weddings, or to give lessons. In my experience, the safest thing to do is to chareg for your time (the amount you charge is justified by the skills you bring to the table, but it's not really the skills that are being paid for).

The reason for this is that if a wedding is cancelled at the last minute, the piper still wants paid. If the child refuses to do the practice necessary to actually learn, the teacher still wants paid. Similarly, if you were hired to DM all day at a GameDay, and then no-one showed up because the advertising was badly done, you would still want paid. And, if the group decide to spend the entire session quoting Monty Python at each other rather than actually gaming, you would still want paid.

(On occasion, I have been asked how much to play at the wedding, and how much for the reception. The way that works is that I would play quite a lot before the wedding, and then only a couple of tunes at the reception, so a lot of people are surprised when the price doubles for the reception. The reason for this is simple - if I play at just the wedding, I can then leave and do something else. If I do both, I have to hang around during the service, and so give up almost my entire day. That I'm not actually doing anything in that time is largely irrelevant - it's time I could be spending sleeping, watching a film, on a date, or whatever.)

The other lesson from weddings is that you should always ask to be paid in advance. Otherwise, you can get trapped at the reception because the person who should be paying you is having their meal and can't be disturbed. Alternatively, the risk exists that they might just refuse to pay. (And, for funerals, this is infinitely worse, since if you don't get paid in advance you basically have to intrude on someone's grief over something as crass as money.)

For a regular arrangement (such as teaching) this is much less of an issue.



I didn't take it as such :) For the most part, I'm in the same position. As I may have said in an earlier posts, there are some things I do for money, and some I do for fun. In general, I prefer not to be paid for doing what I do "for fun", which currently includes DMing.

If approached for some sort of special event one-off deal, though, I would consider it.



I can only see a couple of scenarios where a group might. The first is if everyone in the group wanted to play, but all really hated the idea of DMing. (Or, perhaps, they had money to burn, but a real shortage of time.)

More likely, I can see a gamestore organising some sort of GameDay, and wanting some really top-notch DMs. And the third is if a group want to be entertained for some sort of special event.



Personally, I feel that a lot of people (even DMs) under-estimate just how much effort it takes to run games, much less really good games. And I think many groups who do have really good DMs underestimate just how much difference having such a DM actually makes. Probably because the really good DMs make the whole thing look effortless when, in reality, it is anything but.



Honestly, I wouldn't expect much demand. The most likely scenario I see is something like this:

Alan, Bob, Charles, Dave and Eddy played together for years in school. However, over time they drifted apart, attending different universities, getting geographically distant jobs, and generally losing touch. None of them have gamed for years.

However, at the school reunion, they got back together, and reminisced about the 'good old days'. Someone suggested they should get together some time, and telephone numbers were exchanged.

And Bob's 35th birthday is coming up, and he thinks "let's play the game again, that would be fun." Everyone thinks it's a great idea, but there are two problems: back in the day, no-one really wanted to DM anyway (they took turns because someone had to), and anyway none of them have gamed in years, and have eBayed their books.

But, undeterred, Bob heads to his old FLGS, which has somehow survived. The new owners happen to know me, and put Bob in touch. He phones, we discuss what he wants, I prep a one-shot game, and show up with everything everyone needs (including character sheets, dice, pencils, minis, a quick recap of the rules). Problem solved.

Now, there's no link between me and Bob. He's not even a friend of a friend. So, if I'm giving up my time, it's not unreasonable for me to expect to be paid. And, assuming I do my job properly, Bob and his friends will have a good time, and consider it money well spent. And so, everyone benefits.

(It should be noted: I think something like this is the most likely pro-DM arrangement. I don't think it's terribly likely. So, it remains a hypothetical exercise.)

My memory is crap, but I seem to remember somebody saying they did charge to DM in situations similar to what you mention in the last paragraph, though it may have been the same hypothetical exercise. With the 'oblique' reference, I wasn't sure if you were the person who posted that previously and I genuinely didn't want to offend as I do enjoy your posts here.

Anyway, I do see how the hypothetical situation could work out to everybody's benefit. Thanks.

Rich
 

delericho

Legend
rgard said:
With the 'oblique' reference, I wasn't sure if you were the person who posted that previously and I genuinely didn't want to offend as I do enjoy your posts here.

It wasn't me - I've never actually been paid to DM, just given some thought to how it might work. I do recall some posts along a similar line, but couldn't say who they were by.

And thanks.
 

Driddle

First Post
rgard said:
"$-per-XP"? The rich kid ends up with the highest level character...

What a great idea! Or pass the DM a few bucks under the table every time he rolls for monster initiative and weapon damage against your character.

The more I hear about this "pro DM" concept, the more I like it.
 

rgard

Adventurer
delericho said:
It wasn't me - I've never actually been paid to DM, just given some thought to how it might work. I do recall some posts along a similar line, but couldn't say who they were by.

And thanks.

You are most welcome.

I think the person who posted that may live in New Zealand, but again, my memory is crap.

Thanks,
Rich
 

rgard

Adventurer
Driddle said:
What a great idea! Or pass the DM a few bucks under the table every time he rolls for monster initiative and weapon damage against your character.

The more I hear about this "pro DM" concept, the more I like it.

Yes, as my playing time is now 99% DM, I see promise in this concept!
 

MojoGM

First Post
Ok, here is a question:

Could you do this legally? Since you would be using Wizard's intellectual property but charging for your services?

I don't think I'm qualified to charge for my DM services, but it is an interesting concept...
 

delericho

Legend
MojoGM said:
Could you do this legally? Since you would be using Wizard's intellectual property but charging for your services?

Now that is a question! Note that I am not a lawyer, so this is strictly uninformed opinion.

My first thought on reading that concern is that you would probably have to avoid a pre-generated world and pre-generated adventures, but you would probably be okay otherwise. As we all know, copyright does not apply to rules, only the expression of them... and that we wouldn't be duplicating.

My second thought was that we'd probably be okay in any event - copyright infringement does not require a financial aspect to exist, and since we obviously have the right to use the material in our home games, and indeed at Cons and Gamedays (where, in fact, the organisers can charge for access), the same should probably apply here.

My third thought was that White Wolf, a few years back, did try to impose a license on any and all game groups who used their games in an environment where money changed hands (for DM services, for admission, or even just for snacks!). They were persuaded of the error of their ways, but that was probably due to the massive backlash than for any other reason.

My fourth thought was that perhaps you would be best served by ensuring your game was OGL-compliant. This would have the side effect of making pro-DMs easy to spot, as they'd all have the OGL tattooed on their backs.

But, as I said, IANAL, so I don't have any actual answers to share.
 

Remove ads

Top