Response to recent article by James Wyatt on DMG

[GoLu]

I was talking about magic items. Being a wizard never took away the mystery, surprise, or excitement of magic items.

I'd believe that about the magic user, but not so much about the wizard. That's a class that could create magic items at 1st level in 3e, and doesn't wait much longer in 4e. Sure, scrolls aren't the most mysterious of magic items and there is a whole world of other stuff out there, but... Well, it's the same in 4e as well. There are the fairly mundane magic items (healing potion, flaming sword +2, cloak of protection) and then there are mysterious artifacts. Artifacts aren't all epic items now, with one of the examples being in the heroic tier. With so few artifacts, it seems pretty clear (to me; ymmv) that the DM is intended to make up new artifacts that fit in with the DM's own campaign and have crazy, exciting powers that aren't immediately obvious to the players. As well as an agenda that might not be immediately obvious.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

You know, the only problem I had with players getting the magical items they got is that the default assumption was more or less that they found something random, sold it, and bought (rarely: crafted) what they wanted. I find that dissatisfying. The loot itself should be useful to the player characters.

And if this means I ask them out-of-game what they would like to have, I will gladly put some appropriate treasure in their findings.
Of course, I'd prefer to not ask them and figure it out myself, or give them something they didn't think of but could use well anyway.

I'd probably try to do both...

 

[SSquirrel]

My point is, by putting that list in the PHB it takes away the mystery, surprise, and some of the excitement. I may control which magic items of higher level they get but I have lost control of some of the mystery, surprise, and excitement.

The fact that half the players at your table were packing around a copy of the DMG already spoiled that anyway. Maybe if you were keeping your players tied up in your basement between sessions and only allowed them a 3.x PHB it would work The DMG had the first prestige classes, it was perfectly valid to be looking thru.

I asked my wife last night how much trouble it would be for my Paladin to get an item made after he saves a lil more cash. Which made her start thinking more about how big this city we're going back to is (new campaign we just started). She ended up deciding it was reasonably big and I should be able to get all the components I would need. We're playing 2 characters right now so my Wizard has Enchant Magic Item and I'll handle that part

I will say that one the "must-have magic item" list I'm quickly beginning to put Cloak of Survival right up there. +Enhancement bonus to Endurance checks and Resist Fire/Cold:5 is nice. Throw in some Black Iron Armor for Resist Fire/Necrotic:5, Amulet of Health for Resist Poison:5 and this is all on a Tiefling for another 5 Fire Resistance. You would yawn at Fireball The armor and cloak are both L9 and the necklace is L8 so this should be quite doable by level 9 or 10.

 

[kennew142]

Also I think that not knowing the details of every magic item coming and going was a great thing back when I first started playing. The sense of unknown and mystery was a great joy. Thats all been thrown overboard now with the items in the players handbook.

I've honestly never understood this statement. In every edition, every player I ever had read the magic item section in the DMG. The only difference now is that you don't have to access the DMG when you're not running the game. Players have always had access to all the stats on all the magic items, unless the GM created the item himself. I don't see what's changed in that respect.

The following discourse is not directed specifically at the post quoted above, but is a general response to various posts in this thread.

I understand the hatred of the magic wal-mart. I hate it myself, but as a flavor element. I allow some NPCs to sell magic items, but each one is unique and I control the inventory. If PCs want to create a magic item for themselves, that doesn't bother me at all. Back in AD&D my players were doing it. If PCs want to purchase an item not currently available in any of the NPC's in inventory, they can always let them know and they'll try to find it. As long as the item isn't unbalanced, they will eventually find it through their trade contacts.

There is nothing wrong with making a PC wait to get a hold of a particular item, but they should be able to get it unless it's unbalanced (in which case it should be banned altogether). I tend to agree that trying to decide what magic items a PC is allowed to have (regardless of the character's concept and flavor) is an expression of GM control issues.

As a player, I prefer to use the magic items I've found in adventuring. My GMs have always taken into account what would fit my character's concept and flavor (as I have for my players). Some players have much more defined concepts that include particular items. I've never understood defining a character by equipment, but that doesn't mean that those players shouldn't be allowed to have their own particular style of fun.

The core rules should easily accommodate all play styles. If your players don't mind you controlling what items they can get for their characters, more power to you. Run your game that way. But if you're worried that your players will be disappointed that they can't get what they want, maybe they aren't as satisfied with that play style as you may think.

 

[GoLu]

This discussion reminds me of the saving throw table in 1e D&D, which was in the DMG and not the PHB.

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

Just a quick look at men's versus women's weight lift records (http://users.pandora.be/tom.goegebuer/WR92_M.htm was the only one I could find good comparisons of men-women in the same weight range), the reality of the matter is women in the same weight range as men can lift comparable weights (ie, can achieve the same levels of strength).

1e tried to mimic male delusions.

I think you've misread the numbers on the page to which you linked. Men of a given weight class are lifting ~50% more than the women at the same weight class.

Clean & Jerk: 60 kg weight class

Men: 190.0 kg Women: 125.0 kg

Clean & Jerk: 82.5 kg weight class

Men: 225.0 kg Women: 142.5 kg

Snatch: 60 kg weight class

Men: 152.5 kg Women: 97.5 kg

Snatch: 82.5 kg weight class

Men: 183.0 kg Women: 110.0 kg

 

[ryryguy]

I'm not trying to antagonize. But even James Wyatt admitted in his article that the people at Wizards were divided over this issue. There are two camps out there. Why write the rules to deliberately annoy one camp which in my opinion is the larger camp.

I think you may be misinterpreting Wyatt's comments about this. The two camps at WotC may have been divided over the magic mart as flavor issue, not the magic mart as allowing players to get whatever they want issue. He describes the final solution accommodating either magic marts or no magic marts while still allowing players to get items they want as a compromise that satisfied both sides...

Not to say that should make you happy given the way you feel, but with reference to the article, I think you are representing a "third camp" which he did not address.

a. An item provides some special power that will nullify the fun of an adventure that the group is about to embark on... so you either cancel the adventure and thats weeks entertainment when a particular item gets created or bought? or you delay when the player can get the item. Using my optional rules... I'd say... yes you can get the recipe for the item but it will take 30 days to get here from the far off city of bla bla via caravan. The adventure won't wait though so what do you want to do. Either choice is ok.

Can you provide an example of such an item in 4e and how it would have such a great impact on the adventure? Not that this is not theoretically possible, but the 4e items are so much more limited in scope, it seems much less likely to happen in practice.

b. In a particular campaign world there may be special reasons for some items to not be available. Perhaps in your world you don't allow that type of magic. In previous editions teleport and scrying were vastly reduced in power (much like they are in 4e in fact funny that). This is pure flavor I agree but it does come up.

Previous comment applies here again as you yourself note - the more problematic items are reduced in power. But anyway, there's nothing stopping a DM from banning/restricting particular items for campaign specific reasons. That would work fine within the system as is.

3. My goal as DM is to make the game fun for the group. Sometimes it is more fun to quest for an item and fight some horrible monster to achieve it than to casually drop some gold for the item. Nothing is prized more than that which is earned via in game challenges. Obviously the challenges are fun but there is still that feeling of accomplishment.

Still available provided the item is above the party's level. In fact in the DMG section on adventures I believe this is specifically mentioned as a good hook for the party... if a player wants a particular magic sword, she gets a clue it can be found in a particular dungeon...

Most of my players that also DM use the same philosophy when handing out magic items and allowing their creation. How much or how little occasionally varies some more and some less. They agree though that that is a DMs job. So perhaps I've "brainwashed" them to my philosophy but they seem to enjoy playing that way and carry it on to their own campaigns.

Sounds like you shouldn't have any resistance then to modifying the system to work the way you want it to for your games.

 

[Regicide]

You know, the only problem I had with players getting the magical items they got is that the default assumption was more or less that they found something random, sold it, and bought (rarely: crafted) what they wanted. I find that dissatisfying. The loot itself should be useful to the player characters.

Magic items are almost always useful to the players. The reason players would sell them and buy other things is because the GP value of items wasn't perfectly balanced in effectiveness so there were usually MORE useful things worth the same amount.

If you play in some ridiculous Monty Hall campaign where players could sell items for anything close to full market price and have every item in existence available to buy at whim then OF COURSE they'll sell useful magic items in order to get the min-maxed priced item.

 

[Runestar]

Magic items are almost always useful to the players. The reason players would sell them and buy other things is because the GP value of items wasn't perfectly balanced in effectiveness so there were usually MORE useful things worth the same amount.

It would be hard to accurately price an item based on its effectiveness because different classes would benefit differently from them. For instance, a monk's belt is actually overpriced if used by a monk (because the benefits are fairly minimal), yet seriously underpriced if worn in tandem with a wildling clasp by a druid in wildshape (wis mod to AC, and it stacks with wild armour). Do we assume that the pricing should be based on a worse case scenario where the player acquiring it would milk its benefits for all it is worth?

 

[mlooney]

I will say that one the "must-have magic item" list I'm quickly beginning to put Cloak of Survival right up there. +Enhancement bonus to Endurance checks and Resist Fire/Cold:5 is nice. Throw in some Black Iron Armor for Resist Fire/Necrotic:5, Amulet of Health for Resist Poison:5 and this is all on a Tiefling for another 5 Fire Resistance. You would yawn at Fireball The armor and cloak are both L9 and the necklace is L8 so this should be quite doable by level 9 or 10.

Cloaks and amulets eat the same slots now, plus I don't think resists stack, so your Tiefling is still going to take 11 pts of damage from a Fireball, on the average.