Revamp of the Skills System

[Drawmack]

I have a feat called learned (skill). You can burn a feat to make any non-exclusive skill a class skill. So you want a wizard that can ride like the dickens you can have it, but it'll cost you a feat.

I do it this way because maybe a fighter does traps as a hobby but for him to be as good at them as a rogue he's going to have to spend a lot of time on that hobby and burning the feat symbolizes this IMO.

 

[Clay_More]

Sounds highly reasonable to me. Seems there are many good suggestion for improving on the current skill system. The problem with having a feat which allows you access to other skills as class skills, is that few fighters are going to want to do that. Most are obsessed about their Focus/Specialisation/Improved Critical to focus on such things. Yet, if they were given the option, at the expense of other skills, they might be more inclined to do something about it.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

As I said Clay More, most of the exclusive skills will remain exclusive, so no fighters with healing wands

And as far as the easy, medium, hard goes- the table is exactly the same for every class...that's the point. Spot costs as much for a fighter as it does a rogue, the difference is teh number of skill points each gets, a fighter might be able to get spot and that's it. The rogue can get spot and lots of other things.

As far as changing the skill points per class, right now I'm estimating it based on what class skills each class has, and what each of those skills will cost under the new system. I hope to be able to structure the skill points, so that every class can get the skills they normally get under the old system, while incorporating the flexibility of the new system.

For example, spot and listen will definately be on the expensive list. That means I will most likely give rogues and rangers a few more skill points, so that they can get spot and listen as they normally do. Classes whose current class skills are pretty much all on the medium table will probably not see a big change in skill points.

This is by far the toughest part of the system, and it will take me a fair amount of work and testing to get it right.

The other tough part is ranking the skills into the three categories. Some of them to me are very easy to rank, like the ones I've mentioned above.

But how about skills like ride....hide....heal? This is what I could use feedback from everyone about, it would go a long ways to helping me with the system.

IMO you aren't increasing flexibility, you're decreasing it.

Rogues won't be able to get as many ranks in the expensive skills, or they will be able to get every cheap skill.

In order for a rogue to get hide, move silently, disable device, open lock, pick pocket and tumble, you are going to have to at least double the skill points that rogues get.

I think having you really have to have seperate lists for each class. You will still have accomplished something if you make spot and listen medium instead of expensive that way.

--Skilled Spikey

 

[Stalker0]

IMO you aren't increasing flexibility, you're decreasing it.

Rogues won't be able to get as many ranks in the expensive skills, or they will be able to get every cheap skill.

In order for a rogue to get hide, move silently, disable device, open lock, pick pocket and tumble, you are going to have to at least double the skill points that rogues get.

I think having you really have to have seperate lists for each class. You will still have accomplished something if you make spot and listen medium instead of expensive that way.

--Skilled Spikey

You don't need to double the number of skill points the rogue gets, but you will have to increase it. Out of your list, most likely tumble will be an expensive skill, and maybe hide and move silently, but the rest look like medium skills. So the rogue with 2 or 3 more skill points would be fine with that list.

This is again something that's going to take a fair amount of tweaking.


As to everyone elses, thoughts, I've also had the idea of just simply let a class pick a set of skills that are their class skills. But what happens when you multiclass, how many new skills will they pick up? Also, once they've picked their list its still set in stone. I would rather a class be able to branch out if they wish.

As for the rogue losing his place, remember he is still the only one who can find certain traps. And now the rogue has access to even more skills then he did before, so he can become even more skillful if he chooses. But with this system, if I have a party of adventurers without a rogue, they can compensate by taking open lock, disable device, etc. It would require most of their skills points, but they can do it, and it makes the system more flexible when a key class is missing from an adventuring party.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Not to mention you are removing the most compelling reason to choose ranger.

I really think you have to have different lists for each class or it just doesn't accomplish what you are going for.

Just MHO though.

--Disagreable Spikey

 

[Spatzimaus]

Well, you COULD just do sorta what d20 Modern does, and give each race a list of skills that are always class skills for them. So, Elves might get Listen and Spot as class skills no matter what classes they take, or Halflings with Hide, or Gnomes and Alchemy...

 

[Drawmack]

First, let's take a look at the way that class/cross-class skills work currently.

What is a class skill for max ranks?
A class skill is any skill that is a class skill for any of your character's classes.

What is a class skill for skill points/rank?
When you level a character you get skill points based on the class you are leveling. So if you are a rog/ftr and you level the fighter all the rogue skills with cost 2 points/rank but your max ranks will still increase by 1 and not 0.5.

What about exclusive skills?
Exlcusive skills cannot be taken as cross class skills. However, you can spend cross class points on them if they are a class skill for any of your classes.

What are Max Ranks?
Class Skills max ranks are chr lvl + 3
Cross Class Skills max ranks are (chr lvl +3)/2

What is the actual problem with this that we are discussing here?
It limits the classes because the max ranks of cross class skills never allow a fighter to be as good at hiding as a rogue. This needs to be over come to allow for flaxibility.

Are there any easy ways to do this?
A couple have been mentioned.

1) There is the expert style system. Each class is given a point rating based on its usefullness and then each class is given a number of points to spend purchasing skills at first level. This keeps the classes balanced but also alows more modifiability in the classes.

Benefits: The system only requires a change to the character creation process. While it makes this process a bit more time consuming it is a once and done cost.

Drawbacks: This requires assigning a cost to every skill in the system which can be time consuming and arbitrary as some skills are more important in different games. Therefor each GM needs to make this list themselves. It also makes adding skills to the game more difficult.

2) My feat system. Create a feat that takes 1 non-exlusive skill and makes it a class skill.

Benefits: Allows for additional class skills to modify the classes without changing the core system. Easy to implement. No rules changes to confuse experienced players.

Drawbacks: Favors feat based classes as they have more feats to burn. However those classes also lack skill points so this is pretty much self-balancing.

3) (not previously mentioned) Make the upper limit for all skills be chr lvl +3 but keep everything else about the system the same. So a rogue who specifically trains, as part of their job, to do certain things gets to purchase ranks in those things for less skill points then a fighter who can only study those things in his spare time. Allows max ranks the same but double the cost of buying those ranks.

Benefits: Small change to the current system that should have a low learning curve. Does not affect internal class balance. Makes for smooth integration into existing campaign. Is generic.

Drawbacks: Classes with lots of skill points can take cross class skills much more easily then classes with very few skill points. So a rogue with the ability to ride is much easier then the fighter with the ability to sneak.

4) (not previously mentioned) Background bonus. Give them two class skills added to their normal class list based on their background. So your wizard was a rodeo champion as a kid, he gets ride.

Benefits: No rules changes at all. Very easy to implement.

Drawbacks: Hard to implement into ongoing campaign. Easy to abuse.

So there are 4 very simple ways to get about the same effect your going for with this huge and cumbersome system you propose.

 

[SylverFlame]

Clay-More, I'd likely use something akin to how Khorod is doing it, just with a point buy system.

As for when a character multi-classes, they gain access to all the restricted skills of that class, but their original list stays the same and they gain a few extra points to buy new skills. I'm also toying with the idea of adding new skills to the char's list as they level up. Kind of like feats, but you'd get points and have to buy the skills. It would reflect how a character learns as they get older/more experienced, and is semi-realistic in that a real person can learn something (like wood-working) even very late in their life. Don't know exactly how I'll pull it off, I'm still working on balance issues.

 

[Murrdox]

I love Khorod's idea. It sounds wonderful!

If you did this right, you could even have a "bumbling tinker" rogue... for example a rogue who bypassed move silently and listen to beef up his disable device and search checks. Then perhaps instead of those skills, you gave him a few knowledge skills to represent how much of a bookworm he is, and how clumsy he is when not tinkering. Of course, ideally you SHOULDN'T have to do this, you should be able to build just as effective a rogue as normal.

The problem I see is that non-skill related classes may just dump all their points from their class skills into more important skills. Fighters and Barbarians especially. You'd have to figure something out with it.

I also like the idea of spending a feat to make a skill a class skill... but this again really favors fighters - unless you don't allow them to use their bonus feats for this purpose.

 

[Drawmack]

I also like the idea of spending a feat to make a skill a class skill... but this again really favors fighters - unless you don't allow them to use their bonus feats for this purpose.

That is correct the feat is not on the list of feats they may take as a bonus feat. So many people forget that list exists.

The other thing is fighters only get 2+int skill points per level. So it is almost impossible to get all the good skills and have decent ranks in them too. The fighters usually pick up one or two extra skills. But trading a feat for a skill really balances things nicely.

Let's see I can double my critical range on my bastard sword or I can be better at searching. Really isn't that bad.