Revised monk

[Sylrae]

How about half the ranks from your previous style (round down) count toward the new one? New martial arts are easier to learn once you've gotten the rudiments of an existing style (for the most part), so some stacking would be logical, but it would avoid too much stacking.

so then you can only get to initiate in the second one? I would think it would be better to let them just add it wholesale, but they would be limited in their max rank. so like. each new school they take pushes them 1 down. a second school makes them redo the initiate level, but after that they can freely alternate between the two. then theyre still limited, but not quite as much. They aren't getting any extras, cause they still have to pick one or the other. and then they'll lose access to the max rank. The issue is how do you do the non-rank based bonuses? like ac progression, or like base abilities?

Wrong on both counts. It deals PLUS 1d6 damage to ANY target, living or not, which also bypasses DR/hardness. That's a HUGE benefit for any monk of less than 16th level (when they get ki strike adamantine). It does become less effective at higher levels, though, when they get more attacks and can deal more damage.

That was very much not clear. it sounded like it did ONLY 1d6, and ONLY did it to constructs/objects. maybe you should reword that.

Huh? Dex bonus to AC isn't DR. He would still gain his Dex bonus, AND his dodge bonus from Awareness of Self (because he's not immobilized, helpless, or unconscious), AND have DR 10/- on top of it. I don't see the problem.

I thought the rooted to the earth was an ability that depended on you not moving. as for the DR issue, if the rooted ability essentially overlaps it and makes it useless, maybe it should be dropped. Natural armor could work better than DR anyways. just take the DR value and make it natural armor instead of awareness of self.

Maybe I could increase it to 1 round/level at Grandmaster. I'm just worried about someone spamming it, and I seriously believe that having constant tremorsense out to 100 ft. (at 20th level) is just a BIT overpowered.

A player of mine doing character creation today, and tremorsense is cheap. Theres a wizards template that gives tremorsense and a whole bunch of other stuff for +1 or +2 LA. it was permanent, but only had 60 ft range, not that it really matters. but it is a sight ability and those work in increments of 60

I had that style - Sun and Moon. Everyone said it didn't fit, so I cut it. I do agree, though, that it'd be better served as a base style rather than a PrC style.

It wasn't the pressure points that didnt fit, it was all the positive/negative energy and the undead stuff.

Very good ideas here. I've already got disabling limbs (that's Scorpion Fist), and I was thinking about paralysis, though I thought it'd be too SoD. Partial paralysis is good, or a slow effect; dazing blow, blinding strike, and a couple others I've still got. I could definitely do this.

Hmm. I plan to work on refining exactly what causes AoOs (cause that section's a mess), so that would have to wait a bit. I was thinking about making an ability that would let the monk reflect a melee attack back on its source, but it might be overpowered (and hard to do right, mechanically).

I do these totally different, so I hear you. here's how I do them. AoOs are just a single free attack ANYone can make in ANY round against any opponent that cannot defend themself. You can make them from a range, etc. But, making an attack of opportunity leaves yourself open to an attack of opportunity from anyone who is NOT unable to defend themself. and it's not a queue, it's a stack. which means, after you declare, then someone else declares, then someone else, and the last person to declare is the first to get to attack.

A monk who runs around constantly dodging stuff and doing nothing else would get boring after awhile. It works great for TV or movies, but not in a game. Giving them reduced damage is enough to balance out their speed, IMO.

You're probably right,.

It's not so much a "slight variation" as it is an "access to greater power". All the wuxia-like supernatural and elemental abilities that I had originally are intended for the PrCs - so people who want to play a nonmagical martial artist can use the base class, and people who want to have monks shooting fire from their hands and calling lightning from the sky can use the PrC.

You want to give them MORE abilities? What, they don't have enough already? Seriously.

Think about this for a minute. If they get Grandmaster earlier, what's the incentive to stay in the class? That's the whole point of having it be a high-level thing. If the player can get it early (say, 12th level), there's little reason NOT to go PrC or multiclass.

I'm not making them specialize. Like I said above, it's unlocking a different kind of power. PrCs as a whole are optional, and the styles granted by these ones in specific are definitely optional, as I said above. I'll write up some preliminary stuff this weekend so you can see.

It seemed like you were making them HAVE to PrC. alright then. some of the wind abilities are pretty wuxia though. maybe you should shy away from the elemental attacks, like the ranges wind attack. I kindof forgot the goal was less wuxia for a bit there. and for the whirlwind, it shouldnt be any bigger a radius than reach. cause obviously they have to physically hit them.

I could see burning a feat to gain an extra style ability. The abilities I want to put into the PrCs, though, would be a bit much for feats. Don't forget, you only get 7 feats over the course of 20 levels.

riight. houserules I use the pathfinder variant on this. you get a feat at every odd level. Plus when we play FR (Most of the time) you get a regional feat. plus for every 4 levels in your favored class you get a bonus feat. that's umm. 16. if you go all favored, or 11, otherwise.

Oh, speaking of feats... I keep meaning to toss this out, and I keep forgetting. I was thinking about making the bonus feat list specific for each style - say, 7-8 feats for each (they can choose 4). I couldn't really see a Mountain Style monk picking Mobility, or a Sea monk taking Diehard.

Good idea.

and It's not so bad to have grandmaster be kindof wuxia, the old air ability was fine, it was believable as being the guy just moving so fast he's hard to see. kindof reminds me of the afterimage technique from dragon ball

 

[Kerrick]

so then you can only get to initiate in the second one? I would think it would be better to let them just add it wholesale, but they would be limited in their max rank. so like. each new school they take pushes them 1 down. a second school makes them redo the initiate level, but after that they can freely alternate between the two.

Huh? I'm not following. Seems like you're saying the same thing I did.

The issue is how do you do the non-rank based bonuses? like ac progression, or like base abilities?

Base abilities are easy - whichever ability you use, you use the stat that modifies it. AC progression... hmm. Could just go with the better of the two, and trust the DM not to allow weird combos like Mountain/Wind Style.

That was very much not clear. it sounded like it did ONLY 1d6, and ONLY did it to constructs/objects. maybe you should reword that.

I did:

The monk can channel her ki into her unarmed strike. She can make a single attack as a standard action; if it hits, it deals +1d6 points of damage. If she is attacking a construct, she bypasses 5 points of DR per rank she has in this style; if an object, she bypasses 5 points of hardness per rank. If the attack misses, that use of the ability is wasted.

Seems pretty clear to me.

I thought the rooted to the earth was an ability that depended on you not moving.

You can take a 5-foot step, and "immobilized" means "unable to move of your own volition". Dwarven Defenders get a dodge bonus while in a defensive stance, which is basically what this is.

Natural armor could work better than DR anyways. just take the DR value and make it natural armor instead of awareness of self.

DR works better in this instance, IMO - it's the ability to shrug off damage, not a thickening of the skin.

Theres a wizards template that gives tremorsense and a whole bunch of other stuff for +1 or +2 LA. it was permanent, but only had 60 ft range, not that it really matters. but it is a sight ability and those work in increments of 60.

Huh. I did some digging, and it appears tremorsense is a bit cheaper than I'd thought. We could make it permanent and see how it works in play.

It wasn't the pressure points that didnt fit, it was all the positive/negative energy and the undead stuff.

Oh, right, right. The new Shadow style is pretty much done - it was rather easy, since most of the abilities were already there. I'll add it to the second post. The advanced (PrC, more magical, whatever) version will use Shadow energy and have some Shadowdancer-like abilities, nothing undead-related.

AoOs are just a single free attack ANYone can make in ANY round against any opponent that cannot defend themself. You can make them from a range, etc. But, making an attack of opportunity leaves yourself open to an attack of opportunity from anyone who is NOT unable to defend themself. and it's not a queue, it's a stack. which means, after you declare, then someone else declares, then someone else, and the last person to declare is the first to get to attack.

First part makes sense, but not the second. In the huge melees, it seems like it'd just slow everything down while everyone resolves their special attack.

some of the wind abilities are pretty wuxia though.

That's why I removed Aspect of Wind.

maybe you should shy away from the elemental attacks, like the ranges wind attack.

It's not wind, but ki energy - the description specifically says that. I actually got that from an old episde of Kung Fu, the TV show (the new series, not the old one). There was an episode where the master taught his student how to do a "ki push" (I don't think they had an actual name for it) where they could move small objects slightly at a distance. I just adapted and improved on it - there's a reason it just does a bullrush attack, not blows things along.

and for the whirlwind, it shouldnt be any bigger a radius than reach. cause obviously they have to physically hit them.

It isn't. The only difference from a normal whirlwind attack is that the monk can take a 5-foot step anytime during the action.

and It's not so bad to have grandmaster be kindof wuxia, the old air ability was fine, it was believable as being the guy just moving so fast he's hard to see. kindof reminds me of the afterimage technique from dragon ball

I was thinking the guy from Chronicles of Riddick, but it's likely pretty much the same thing. Aspect of Wind is just supernatural/magical enough that it didn't quite fit with the other stuff, even for a Grandmaster. Cloudwalk is semi-wuxia, but still believable and not that supernatural.

On a side note: I watched Kiss of the Dragon (Jet Li) last night on TV... and I noted that he uses a lot of improvised weapons. Jackie Chan does the same thing - I'm not sure if it's something in Chinese kung fu, or just cinematic license. I think it could work, if it were done properly - I mean, you have a good point about it seeming more like a Drunken Master thing, and I agree, but it really seems like a Sun Style monk would be able to pick up a nearby weapon-like object and use it to beat people's asses.

 

[Sylrae]

Huh? I'm not following. Seems like you're saying the same thing I did.

You said maxrank = rank/2, I said maxrank = rank/1.

Base abilities are easy - whichever ability you use, you use the stat that modifies it. AC progression... hmm. Could just go with the better of the two, and trust the DM not to allow weird combos like Mountain/Wind Style.

hmm. I think alternating every othr level would be the only way to do AC, well, unless they completely switch over, and then from that point on they gt AC from the 2nd school.

Seems pretty clear to me.

Didn't see the new +.

You can take a 5-foot step, and "immobilized" means "unable to move of your own volition". Dwarven Defenders get a dodge bonus while in a defensive stance, which is basically what this is.

Alright

DR works better in this instance, IMO - it's the ability to shrug off damage, not a thickening of the skin.

I think DR is more of a supernatural resistance to certain (or all) types of damage. that's the way its used for just about everything. And the natural armor in this case wouldnt be a thickening of skin, just toughening, or everything.

Huh. I did some digging, and it appears tremorsense is a bit cheaper than I'd thought. We could make it permanent and see how it works in play.

Cool

Oh, right, right. The new Shadow style is pretty much done - it was rather easy, since most of the abilities were already there. I'll add it to the second post. The advanced (PrC, more magical, whatever) version will use Shadow energy and have some Shadowdancer-like abilities, nothing undead-related.

Awesome

First part makes sense, but not the second. In the huge melees, it seems like it'd just slow everything down while everyone resolves their special attack.

it's like "the stack" in magic the gathering, regarding instant spells.

1. Jimmy goes to attack Bob, who is unconscious. It's a risky procedure that he has to do quickly, because he's not defending himself from the conscious people around him while he attacks jimmy.
2. Ed, one of Bob's friends, sees what Jimmy is about to do, and attacks Jimmy with his axe to try any prevent Jimmy from Killing Bob. He can't watch his own back while he does this.
3. David, one of jimmy's friends, goes to shoot David in the back before he can hit Jimmy.
------------Declaration of actions finishes------
3. David does what he said he would.
2. If Ed is not prevented from doing what he said he would, he does it.
1. Jimmy is not prevented from doing what he said he would, he attacks Bob.

It's not really confusing, and I think it's the best way to do AoOs, even if you use standard initiative (which I don't but I'll detail that in a second). Attacks of Opportunity are something that is done in the heat of the moment. You could always use your standard attack and not the extra one against the undefended opponent, and then you dont give people the chance to hit you with it. It's not particularly slower. everyone needs to say what they're doing in a normal round anyways, the difference, is that the player gets to react o those slower than himself.

You could tie it into stats a bit better if you want, and instead of the order they are executed in being based on who did what in what order, it could be based on initiative modifier.

As for how I do initiative, you roll your initiative as normal, but then you do like above kindof. the slowest player says what they are going to do, then the next slowest, going all the way up to the fastest. Faster players are given the chance to react to slower players actions. And it doesn't significantly slow down combat. But I haven't tested it in a combat with more than 30 creatures or anythign like that yet

That's why I removed Aspect of Wind.

It's not wind, but ki energy - the description specifically says that. I actually got that from an old episde of Kung Fu, the TV show (the new series, not the old one). There was an episode where the master taught his student how to do a "ki push" (I don't think they had an actual name for it) where they could move small objects slightly at a distance. I just adapted and improved on it - there's a reason it just does a bullrush attack, not blows things along.

"Ki Energy" or wind, it's not somethign a real martial artist can do, and I actually think it's considerably more wuxia than Aspect of the Wind. that was my point. You removed one semi-wuxia ability, and have one that is More Wuxia still.

It isn't. The only difference from a normal whirlwind attack is that the monk can take a 5-foot step anytime during the action.

Good Stuff then.

I was thinking the guy from Chronicles of Riddick, but it's likely pretty much the same thing. Aspect of Wind is just supernatural/magical enough that it didn't quite fit with the other stuff, even for a Grandmaster. Cloudwalk is semi-wuxia, but still believable and not that supernatural.

Cloudwalk is fine, and actually I think its really cool. I don't think its big enough to be a grandmaster ability though. Master sounds like a better placement. As stated above, although Aspect of the Wind is wuxia, the 'KI' energy push thing is more wuxia.

On a side note: I watched Kiss of the Dragon (Jet Li) last night on TV... and I noted that he uses a lot of improvised weapons. Jackie Chan does the same thing - I'm not sure if it's something in Chinese kung fu, or just cinematic license. I think it could work, if it were done properly - I mean, you have a good point about it seeming more like a Drunken Master thing, and I agree, but it really seems like a Sun Style monk would be able to pick up a nearby weapon-like object and use it to beat people's asses.

That wouldn't be a school dependent thig, that would be just a chinese cinematic license thing, or at best, just an "anyone can do it" thing. An Improv weapon feat would do it just fine, and I think there is one.

 

[Kerrick]

You said maxrank = rank/2, I said maxrank = rank/1.

So... if I took Mountain Style to Initiate rank and then started learning to Ocean Style, when I gained 14th level I'd be Master in both?

hmm. I think alternating every othr level would be the only way to do AC, well, unless they completely switch over, and then from that point on they gt AC from the 2nd school.

What happens when your second style is lower than the first (like Sun vs. Mountain)?

Didn't see the new +.

That was always there - it was just hiding.

I think DR is more of a supernatural resistance to certain (or all) types of damage.

Only DR /magic and /alignment are supernatural - all other types of DR are extraordinary. It's easy enough to house rule if you want.

"Ki Energy" or wind, it's not somethign a real martial artist can do, and I actually think it's considerably more wuxia than Aspect of the Wind. that was my point. You removed one semi-wuxia ability, and have one that is More Wuxia still.

People can't run along tiny tree branches or water, nor can they magically heal themselves either. I'll tone it down, though - instead of a corridor of rushing wind, I'll just make it more like Guile's sonic boom, where the monk does a semi-telekinetic ki push that targets a creature within 20 feet.

Cloudwalk is fine, and actually I think its really cool. I don't think its big enough to be a grandmaster ability though. Master sounds like a better placement.

Yeah, I'll probably move those things back where they were. I was playing around with the PrCs, and I'm not sure how to do the progression - I mean, does it go back to the four-tier thing with new powers, or what? Besides that, I'd have to come up with more things to fill in the dead levels in between the style abilities, and I just don't feel like it. I'll finish the main monk and leave those for a "maybe later" thing.

An Improv weapon feat would do it just fine, and I think there is one.

Not in the PHB. There's probably one in one of the fighter splats.

Also, I've added the Shadow Style... I was going to do it yesterday, but ENWorld was having fits, so I gave up.

 

[Sylrae]

So... if I took Mountain Style to Initiate rank and then started learning to Ocean Style, when I gained 14th level I'd be Master in both?

Right. You'd still have the same number of abilities though, you'd have to pick one ability from all of your options at each rank.

What happens when your second style is lower than the first (like Sun vs. Mountain)?

Then if you want to gain further benefits of both, you drop what you've got and go 50/50 between them, every other level, evenly split. or 33/33/33 if youre crazy. If you don't want to do that, then from that point on you can't learn abilities from your old school, and from this point on you only get the stuff from the new school added to your class. Also, each new school would lower your max rank by 1.

That was always there - it was just hiding.

My bad. . .


Only DR /magic and /alignment are supernatural - all other types of DR are extraordinary. It's easy enough to house rule if you want.

People can't run along tiny tree branches or water, nor can they magically heal themselves either. I'll tone it down, though - instead of a corridor of rushing wind, I'll just make it more like Guile's sonic boom, where the monk does a semi-telekinetic ki push that targets a creature within 20 feet.

the difference is that for unrealistic things in a martial arts class I can appreciate unusual WITHIN the martial artist, or unusual things they can do with contact via attacks, but I just can't get behind ranged energy weapons. Kamehameha is not a real martial arts technique. Same with Hadouken, Sonic Boom, Liu Kang's Fireballs, Megaman's Energy Blasts, Ranma's Moko Takabisha, Ryoga's Shishi Hokodan, or any other energy weapon shown by a martial artist. Amusing in a videogame/anime? yes. Believable martial arts technique, even when you stretch reality? no.

Yeah, I'll probably move those things back where they were. I was playing around with the PrCs, and I'm not sure how to do the progression - I mean, does it go back to the four-tier thing with new powers, or what? Besides that, I'd have to come up with more things to fill in the dead levels in between the style abilities, and I just don't feel like it. I'll finish the main monk and leave those for a "maybe later" thing.

Yeah. get base classes finished first.

Not in the PHB. There's probably one in one of the fighter splats.

I think it's complete warrior but I dont wanna go check.

Also, I've added the Shadow Style... I was going to do it yesterday, but ENWorld was having fits, so I gave up.

Sweet.

 

[Kerrick]

Right. You'd still have the same number of abilities though, you'd have to pick one ability from all of your options at each rank.

Umm... no. If I were a black belt in jujitsu and started learning karate, I'd have to start at the bottom. Knowing jujitsu would help me advance more quickly, since they use a lot of the same moves, but you don't automatically gain a black belt in karate too. That's why I suggested that half the ranks in your old style (jujitsu, in this case) be applied to the new style (karate) - it simulates the overlap of disciplines and the ability to pick things up more quickly, without being too much. I'll also have to note that these are "virtual ranks" - the extra ranks you gain from the other style don't enable you to choose new abilities; they just add to durations and compass abilities.

Then if you want to gain further benefits of both, you drop what you've got and go 50/50 between them, every other level, evenly split.

That could work, I guess - it's the best way to do it.

the difference is that for unrealistic things in a martial arts class I can appreciate unusual WITHIN the martial artist, or unusual things they can do with contact via attacks, but I just can't get behind ranged energy weapons.

Eh. I can replace it with Cloudwalk and move Aspect of Wind back to Grandmaster.

 

[Sylrae]

Umm... no. If I were a black belt in jujitsu and started learning karate, I'd have to start at the bottom. Knowing jujitsu would help me advance more quickly, since they use a lot of the same moves, but you don't automatically gain a black belt in karate too. That's why I suggested that half the ranks in your old style (jujitsu, in this case) be applied to the new style (karate) - it simulates the overlap of disciplines and the ability to pick things up more quickly, without being too much. I'll also have to note that these are "virtual ranks" - the extra ranks you gain from the other style don't enable you to choose new abilities; they just add to durations and compass abilities.

So. you just said if you pick up a second school, you can never pass initiate in either school. that totally makes it not worth the effort, because it effectively means you'll never get ANY of the good abilities.
Not only that, but learning stuff from another school doesn't allow you to learn any of their abilities? So all you get is their Armor class? That makes it pointless. If I'm a practitioner of the Shadow school, and I start learning from the mountain school, I'm going to want to learn Iron Fist. If I can never learn any of the techniques, then I'm not really studying that school, am I?
The Max rank reduced by one (my alternative idea), would mean that you could never reach grandmaster, but you would be able to take abilities from either school up to master. (and reach master in both, at the time you would normally reach grandmaster).
And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game. Thats why when they revised feats that do things like add to your hit dice, the changes are now retroactive. It shouldnt matter WHICH level you take things at, or which order you took them in, if two people take the same things then one shouldnt be penalized for not planning out levels 1-20 before the game started. that sort of penalty just encourages munchkining, and discourages character development. With your Idea of going ALL the way back to the beginning, if I'm any rank higher than the lowest then learning from a new school is pointless.

Also, Initiate sounds like the lowest rank and Acolyte sounds higher. It's kindof confusing. O.O

I dunno.

RSVP

~Darkholme

 

[Kerrick]

So. you just said if you pick up a second school, you can never pass initiate in either school. that totally makes it not worth the effort, because it effectively means you'll never get ANY of the good abilities.

Sure you could - if you went past 20th level.

Not only that, but learning stuff from another school doesn't allow you to learn any of their abilities?

Huh? Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If you train in a new school, you can choose which school to gain the abilities from when you gain the proper level (8th, 14th, 20th).

I was thinking about this, and I see where you're coming from - the PC would be assumed to be training in both styles more or less equally. He would only be able to choose from one style when picking abilities upon gaining a new rank, though - giving them two abilities would ensure that every monk would train in two styles. Adding the feat that lets you choose a new ability will balance this out.

The Max rank reduced by one (my alternative idea), would mean that you could never reach grandmaster, but you would be able to take abilities from either school up to master. (and reach master in both, at the time you would normally reach grandmaster).

And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game.

You can't have it both ways, though - either you can automatically start at Initiate rank in the second style (due to cross-training and existing experience) and can advance to Grandmaster, or you can start at Acolyte and go to Master. I don't see how you can start at a higher rank and go to Master and have it work properly. I'm assuming that each time you gain a rank, it works for BOTH styles - as I said above, it's assumed that you're training in both simultaneously. It's like skills - you gain a number of skill points to advance multiple skills at the same time.

Also, Initiate sounds like the lowest rank and Acolyte sounds higher. It's kindof confusing.

Acolyte and Initiate are basically the same thing, but I usually see Initiate placed higher on the ladder - an Acolyte is someone who knows next to nothing and usually has little to no access to anything special; an Initiate has usually gone through some kind of ritual or rite of passage and has a mark to denote his status/rank and additional responsibilities/duties/privileges. Effectively, you've been "initiated" into the group/organization/guild/whatever.

 

[Sylrae]

Sure you could - if you went past 20th level.

Few games go all the way up to 20, let alone past 20. In alot of games, once thy hit 20, there may be no epic.

Huh? Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. If you train in a new school, you can choose which school to gain the abilities from when you gain the proper level (8th, 14th, 20th).

the idea. if you train to acolyte, then pick up a new school, you do acolyte again. then you work your way up. so at 18, youd be master. and thats in both schools. however, at each rank uppage, you would still only get ONE ability, but you could pick from either school.

I was thinking about this, and I see where you're coming from - the PC would be assumed to be training in both styles more or less equally. He would only be able to choose from one style when picking abilities upon gaining a new rank, though - giving them two abilities would ensure that every monk would train in two styles. Adding the feat that lets you choose a new ability will balance this out.

Thats basically what I was talking about. And a feat to take an extra monk ability would be cool.

You can't have it both ways, though - either you can automatically start at Initiate rank in the second style (due to cross-training and existing experience) and can advance to Grandmaster, or you can start at Acolyte and go to Master. I don't see how you can start at a higher rank and go to Master and have it work properly. I'm assuming that each time you gain a rank, it works for BOTH styles - as I said above, it's assumed that you're training in both simultaneously. It's like skills - you gain a number of skill points to advance multiple skills at the same time.

Sortof yeah. both schools advance, and then you get to pick one of the abilities from either list.

Acolyte and Initiate are basically the same thing, but I usually see Initiate placed higher on the ladder - an Acolyte is someone who knows next to nothing and usually has little to no access to anything special; an Initiate has usually gone through some kind of ritual or rite of passage and has a mark to denote his status/rank and additional responsibilities/duties/privileges. Effectively, you've been "initiated" into the group/organization/guild/whatever.

Alrighty. I would assume an initiate has just been initiated, and an acolyte was initiated a while ago but is still low ranked.

You could also allow the option to dump an individual feat to grab an ability from any other school up to your rank.

The idea is you dont have multiple ranks for each school, you have one rank overall. so picking up a new school completely and doing 2 of them would just make you repeat one to stop it from being overpowered.

and then, you could allow some other sort of penalty to completely convert from one school to another. This would be a smaller penalty, but they would never be able to take new abilities from their original school.

I think Ideally you would allow all three methods of cross schooling. Then you can dabble, advance in 2, or change to a new style completely.

 

[Kerrick]

Few games go all the way up to 20, let alone past 20. In alot of games, once thy hit 20, there may be no epic.

True. A lot of that is because epic play sucks, but I'm working on that.

the idea. if you train to acolyte, then pick up a new school, you do acolyte again. then you work your way up. so at 18, youd be master. and thats in both schools. however, at each rank uppage, you would still only get ONE ability, but you could pick from either school.

But... you said "And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game." I'm totally confused now.

Alrighty. I would assume an initiate has just been initiated, and an acolyte was initiated a while ago but is still low ranked.

No.. you can join but not be "initiated" until a later time - after you've completed a minimum term of training/service, you've done something worthy, or whatever. It's like being involved in a secret society - you can join, and you know some of what's going on, but until you've been truly initiated, you don't get access to the secret hideout, learn the secret handshake, or get the special decoder ring.

You could also allow the option to dump an individual feat to grab an ability from any other school up to your rank.

Not unless they're trained in that style. You can't just learn a move from a random martial art - you have to build up to it, because a lot of the time there are lesser maneuvers you have to learn first.

The idea is you dont have multiple ranks for each school, you have one rank overall.

... Why? Every martial art ever created has ranks.

so picking up a new school completely and doing 2 of them would just make you repeat one to stop it from being overpowered.

and then, you could allow some other sort of penalty to completely convert from one school to another. This would be a smaller penalty, but they would never be able to take new abilities from their original school.

I think Ideally you would allow all three methods of cross schooling. Then you can dabble, advance in 2, or change to a new style completely.

You've totally lost me again.