Revised monk

[Sylrae]

True. A lot of that is because epic play sucks, but I'm working on that.

Epic Play is largely unnecessary. Not all campaigns revolve around fighting demigods, and not all campaigns should. I've never had a game go above 18, and about 60% of the games I've played don't pass 15. Not everyone has rapid leveling. Getting from 3-5 often takes about 4 sessions. At 1 per week, that's a month. Levels are a once every 2-3 weeks you get one, type of thing, in many games. Getting to 20, from level one, is between 8.6 and a 13.3 months. Most games don't last that long. (we dont usually start at level 1 though, but level 20 is still likely a 7-10 month campaign)

But... you said "And restarting at rank 1 again (instead of just repeating a rank) kills you unless you take it early in the game." I'm totally confused now.

OK.
I'm a martial artist. I'm an initiate (level 8). If I have to start at acolyte again, It would be pointless to choose my ability for level 14 from my new school if it has to come from acolyte. If you add only gaining access to the lowest rank of abilities to a lowered maximum, that means at 18 I reach master, and my acolyte abilities reach initiate. totally useless.

No.. you can join but not be "initiated" until a later time - after you've completed a minimum term of training/service, you've done something worthy, or whatever. It's like being involved in a secret society - you can join, and you know some of what's going on, but until you've been truly initiated, you don't get access to the secret hideout, learn the secret handshake, or get the special decoder ring.

Alrighty then.

Not unless they're trained in that style. You can't just learn a move from a random martial art - you have to build up to it, because a lot of the time there are lesser maneuvers you have to learn first.

The basics are mostly the same. Thats why one school can take a technique from a different school and add it to itself. If youre blowing a feat on it, clearly you're studying for it, but you arent learning the whole school, youre learning just enough to adapt the technique into the school youre in.

... Why? Every martial art ever created has ranks.

Having separate ranks for each martial art just overcomplicates things in this case.

You've totally lost me again.

ok. Ideally, I would implement 3 methods of cross schooling.
1. Dabbling: You go all in one school, but you can blow a feat to learn an ability from another school youre not in, no higher than your rank. You have taken the time to learn this one technique, but youre not in the school. So you just get the one ability.
2. Dual Schooling: You repeat a single rank, so if you do it at level 8, you repeat acolyte for max choice options. You can learn any ability up to that rank in either school. This is the martial artist studying 2 actual schools. AC 50/50 split between them, and they get both sets of default abilities. for Speed, it's halfway between the 2 schools.
3. Conversion: Doable once, you stop learning your old school in favor of a different school. From this point on you can only learn abilities from the new school, not the old one. Your rank remains unchanged. This has to be done before attaining Master in a school. You keep all your old abilities from the old school, and you cannot switch them. You lose the default ability of your old school, and gain the default ability of the new one. Your speed and AC remain the same, but from that point on they progress as though in the new school.

When you change schools in real life, you dont always start at the beginning, alot of the time they will place you based on what you already can do from another school. Often its just a lateral transfer.

 

[Kerrick]

Epic Play is largely unnecessary. Not all campaigns revolve around fighting demigods, and not all campaigns should.

Epic play is hardly about fighting demigods. I'm not sure where you got that idea. At its core, it's simply fighting bigger and badder enemies, none of which need to have any kind of divinity. I've played up to 30th level, and I had a blast (faults in the epic system notwithstanding). I understand epic play isn't for everyone, but I design all my systems so that people who DO play it can take advantage. It is not, however, a requirement.

I'm a martial artist. I'm an initiate (level 8). If I have to start at acolyte again, It would be pointless to choose my ability for level 14 from my new school if it has to come from acolyte. If you add only gaining access to the lowest rank of abilities to a lowered maximum, that means at 18 I reach master, and my acolyte abilities reach initiate. totally useless.

That's why I suggested that if you choose to train in a new style, you're automatically Initiate rank - you can choose any ability from Acolyte or Initiate, and you can advance in both styles up to Master rank.

If youre blowing a feat on it, clearly you're studying for it, but you arent learning the whole school, youre learning just enough to adapt the technique into the school youre in.

Eh. I view your idea like taking a feat to learn, say, sneak attack when you have no levels in rogue.

1. Dabbling: You go all in one school, but you can blow a feat to learn an ability from another school youre not in, no higher than your rank. You have taken the time to learn this one technique, but youre not in the school. So you just get the one ability.

See above.

2. Dual Schooling: You repeat a single rank, so if you do it at level 8, you repeat acolyte for max choice options. You can learn any ability up to that rank in either school. This is the martial artist studying 2 actual schools. AC 50/50 split between them, and they get both sets of default abilities. for Speed, it's halfway between the 2 schools.

This is the one I'm leaning most toward. Using the average AC and speed bonus could work, or just the better of the two. Here's what I've got for cross-training in styles:

Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose to begin training in a new style; she must spend a week training under a master in the new style, whereupon her rank in the new style is automatically set to Initiate (due to the training she has already received in her first style). Each time she gains a new rank, she can choose an ability from either style (but not both). A monk cannot train in more than two styles, nor can she train in Mountain and Wind or Sun and Ocean styles at the same time – they are sufficiently different that most monks cannot accommodate both styles in their training.

When calculating AC bonus from the Awareness of Self ability and fast movement, use the higher bonus. For example, a monk trained in both Mountain and Sun styles would use the Mountain style AC bonus and Sun Style movement rate.

The clause about not being able to train in Mountain/Wind or Sun/Sea will prevent someone from taking Mountain/Wind for the huge AC/speed boost, and you don't have to worry about the Mountain style DR - that style's AC is better than Sun/Ocean.

3. Conversion: Doable once, you stop learning your old school in favor of a different school. From this point on you can only learn abilities from the new school, not the old one. Your rank remains unchanged. This has to be done before attaining Master in a school. You keep all your old abilities from the old school, and you cannot switch them. You lose the default ability of your old school, and gain the default ability of the new one. Your speed and AC remain the same, but from that point on they progress as though in the new school.

I'm not sure about this one. I personally don't like having to make ultimate choices (i.e., once you choose, you can't go back). I think #2 is the best all around - real-world martial artists can master several different styles, and I don't see why PCs couldn't do the same.

When you change schools in real life, you dont always start at the beginning, alot of the time they will place you based on what you already can do from another school. Often its just a lateral transfer.

I can't speak for martial arts, but I know in the military, if you switch services, you often lose a rank or two - it's not a straight swap. It also depends largely on what the other styles are, too - if you're a black belt in kung fu and want to learn judo, chances are you'll start at the bottom; if you want to learn jujitsu or karate, though, you would start higher (they'd probably fast-track you through the tests to see what you actually know, because some people don't really earn their belts).

 

[Sylrae]

Epic play is hardly about fighting demigods. I'm not sure where you got that idea. At its core, it's simply fighting bigger and badder enemies, none of which need to have any kind of divinity. I've played up to 30th level, and I had a blast (faults in the epic system notwithstanding). I understand epic play isn't for everyone, but I design all my systems so that people who DO play it can take advantage. It is not, however, a requirement.

That's why I suggested that if you choose to train in a new style, you're automatically Initiate rank - you can choose any ability from Acolyte or Initiate, and you can advance in both styles up to Master rank.

If you pikc up that school AT master rank, then you dont get to have master in both. thats where its majorly different. What level you pick up the new school at shouldnt really matter. it should have the same end result.

Eh. I view your idea like taking a feat to learn, say, sneak attack when you have no levels in rogue.

Except that martial artist is a single class, so its not the same thing. youre just cross specializing. It's more like a fighter dumping a regular feat to get access to another fighter feat. I should note you should be able to use said feat for an ability from your own school as well. Hell. for another feat, I would say they should be able to use another schools abilities (learned through these feats) adapted to their own school, using their attributes, like a weapon finesse feat for monks. - thats just a maybe though.

This is the one I'm leaning most toward. Using the average AC and speed bonus could work, or just the better of the two. Here's what I've got for cross-training in styles:

I'm not sure about this one. I personally don't like having to make ultimate choices (i.e., once you choose, you can't go back). I think #2 is the best all around - real-world martial artists can master several different styles, and I don't see why PCs couldn't do the same.

You misunderstood me. I'm not saying pick one of the three. I'm saying all of them. a PC should have access to all of the methods I mentioned. and the "use the better value" is one I think is a bad Idea for this because martial arts styles arent actually elemts, and there's not much reason I see why the wonkky combinations you mentioned should be disallowed. They wouldnt be particularly effective because alot of their strengths would cancel eachother out, but still.

I can't speak for martial arts, but I know in the military, if you switch services, you often lose a rank or two - it's not a straight swap. It also depends largely on what the other styles are, too - if you're a black belt in kung fu and want to learn judo, chances are you'll start at the bottom; if you want to learn jujitsu or karate, though, you would start higher (they'd probably fast-track you through the tests to see what you actually know, because some people don't really earn their belts).

This is referring to ranks in an organization. A class is more accurately used to measure what you KNOW or what you can DO. and in this case, alot of my arguments are based as much on how it would effect gameplay as logic based on how it works in real life.

 

[Kerrick]

Sorry I haven't done any updates lately, but I took a break from this to work on other things. I've added bonus feat lists to all the styles (though a couple are 1-2 feats short - they're all supposed to have 10), a couple abilities to the Sea and Sun Styles, and rearranged the Wind Style abilities. Earthsense is now an "always-on" ability, and I added that stuff about learning new styles. The Fighting Style Ability feat (which needs a better name) is the "you can learn an extra ability from any style in which you are trained" one.

 

[Knightfall]

So, is there a PDF version of this yet? I looked through the thread but I didn't see it posted anywhere.

 

[Kerrick]

Not yet. I have to finish it first. As it stands, I only need a couple more abilities for the Sun Style and something for the Western focus, and that'll be about it.

 

[Knightfall]

Not yet. I have to finish it first. As it stands, I only need a couple more abilities for the Sun Style and something for the Western focus, and that'll be about it.

Looking forward to the final version.

 

[Kerrick]

Added some more stuff - a L11 class ability, a couple missing bonus feats, the West compass focus, and a couple to the Sea, Shadow, Sun, and Wind styles. A couple names and 1-2 more abilities, and this baby's DONE!

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I just thought this might be of interest:

As I posted elsewhere, a Shou Disciple is proficient with Lt Armors and no shields, and expressly gets to use its FoB and other martial arts skills when wearing Light armor, and loses it with heavier armors or shields.

And Monk & Shoul Disciple levels stack for most purposes.

There is, however, no language what happens when a Monk with levels in Shou Disciple uses Light Armor- as in, does he get to use all of his levels of FoB in armor, or only his Shou Disciple ones?

I, for one, opt for the former- I see the Shou Disciple's Lt Armor proficiency as a class feature that could just as easily be named "Armored Monk."

 

[Kerrick]

What's a Shou Disciple? Is it a PrC or a base class? If it's a PrC, I could see it - it's simply a refocus of the monk toward being able to fight in armor. I'd agree with you, though - since the levels stack and they gain more or less the same abilities, the character would still be able to use his monk abilities in armor. I would not, however, let him keep the AC bonus - that was put in specifically to counter the fact that they can't wear armor.