[revolution] Exactly WHY is d20 so great, comparing?

[Michael Tree]

Most of what you call "complex" is typically done without much thought, in my experience. I also believe d20 is fairly complex "out of game"; during character generation, for example, but not during actual play. During actual play, the "complexity" is typically "roll d20; add your modifier, compare to a target number."

For skills that's basically true, and can only take time for the GM, who may have to look up or calculate the DC. But in combat and with some spellcasting, it's more complicated. Most combat maneuvers require several rolls, with different totals and modifiers for each. If the gamer needs to look a rule up in the book, it's very slow, but even if they've memorized it, it's still not simple.

Outside of combat, where the only game mechanics you'll be using are skills and spells, it is quite simple, as long as the spellcaster doesn't need to look up his spells.

D&D's main complexities lie in its fairly complicated character creation/preparation and its steep learning curve, but the degree of precision it attemps to create in the rules creates more complexity. I like d20, but I prefer something more fast and loose.

 

[BryonD]

If you really need affirmation in black and white in the rulebooks, there it is. Those that don't need this sort of affirmation don't need to look it up in the first place.

Amen.

It's funny.

My opinion has for a long time been that the best roleplaying systems should have the absolute minimum of roleplaying material between the covers. My 5 year old daughter roleplays school and tea party and shopping and kill the dragon all the time. She doesn't need a book to tell her how to do it.

Neither do I.

What I do want is a mechanical model of a world to play in.

Tell me that falling does 1d6 per 10 feet, a sword does 1d8, a fighter gets +1 BAB per level and a level 3 fireball spell has a 20 ft radius. Redefine the physics of the world so that I and my group know how this imaginary place is different than the real world.

Then let us take that mechanical system and roleplay within it.

(Settings are a different matter of course, I'm just talking about the base system).

 

[d4]

For skills that's basically true, and can only take time for the GM, who may have to look up or calculate the DC.

...or he can simply ballpark it: "That sounds like a DC 15. go ahead and roll!" it only takes up time if you let it.

Most combat maneuvers require several rolls, with different totals and modifiers for each. If the gamer needs to look a rule up in the book, it's very slow, but even if they've memorized it, it's still not simple.

most combat maneuvers: roll d20 + mods to attack, roll variable dice + mods for damage. and 95% of those modifiers have been worked out in advance and are already written down on the character sheet. i'd call that simple.

even the notoriously-complicated grappling usually doesn't involve more than four rolls per round (touch attack, attack of opportunity, grapple check, unarmed damage).

 

[Dinkeldog]

I really don't see the complication all that much. I find Rolemaster with the multiple chart lookups to find out if you maim yourself while brushing your teeth to be more problematic, but still, really non-effecting roleplaying-wise. I find combat to be more difficult with WW's games, given that every wound taken requires the player to recalculate all the penalties as you go down the death spiral, also requiring rolls in every round to change drastically.

But none of that affects the role-playing. Neither lots of rules, nor fewer rules prevents my character from ridiculing the bad guys during battles, nor does it keep the character from striving to liberate the slaves, slay the bad guys and rescue princes/princesses from their evil captors while building their own reputations for their eventual kingdoms.

 

[Ranger REG]

So what's your point, both of you?

Of course d20 can be played with as much storytelling emphasis as you want.

But the rules of the Storyteller system (such as they are) specifically state that the driving goal is to tell a good story. The d20 rules--while they are good for story telling--do not have the same emphasis.

You don't need the book to coach you on emphasizing the story. All you need is imagination ... and tap into the child in you that remembers how to play "Let's Pretend."

Besides, I remember having played a hack-n-slash version of Vampire using the Storyteller system. We didn't emphasize on story, we're just going on a blood frenzy during the Rodney King Riot. So just as I can have a plotless game of Vampire, so I can have a story-based adventure with D&D.

The rulesets are merely tools to aid both GMs and players. I don't see it as any one system having a specific design purpose.

As I said, D&D and d20 have a history, just as much as Coca-Cola and Big Mac.

 

[Ranger REG]

The more time a GM has to spend tracking hit points, remembering and applying the rules for the actions the PCs are taking, calculating NPC attacks and damage, and tracking the combat watching for attacks of opportunities and miscellaneous modifiers, the less time he has for thinking up fun dialogue and quips, cool but mechanically meaningless enemy actions, and generally setting the mood for the combat.

I doubt it. As a GM, even I have time to make a banter or two during combat, especially when I score major damage to the PC's.

Then again, I'm an old-school wargamer, with a group of old-school wargamers. So we know when the roleplaying scenes come up during a game session and when tactics come into play during combat.

When it comes down to it, I'm not doing a drama, but an action-adventure episode.

The more time a player has to spend tracking their hit points, deciding what game mechanic abilities options to use or activate, and calculating tactical movement, the less time he has to "be" his character, think up good dialogue, and react to the situation as his character might, not as the game mechanics dictate. I tend to be a deep immersive sort of roleplayer, but I find that having to calculate numbers and think in tactical rules yanks me out of character.

Heh. IME, no player look at his or her HP outside of a combat scene, unless he is suffering from continual damage (poisoned, diseased, sickened, etc.) so they can focus on the roleplaying situations.

This isn't to say that rules automatically do get in the way of roleplaying - many people have great roleplaying with d20 - but rules certainly can get in the way.

Rules can get in the way if the GM allow it, and I'm not just talking about d20 but any rules system in general.

Granted, the character's stats represent the embodiment of one's talents and abilities that may be needed in certain roleplaying situations (Who's the best lockpicker? Who's the best spokesman? Who's the best leader?) but that's only the framework of the character. The player brings the persona, sometimes they inject their own.

As for complexity, d20 isn't Rolemaster, but it is still an extremely complicated game. Sure the "d20 + roll" mechanic is simple, but once you add in the complexities of combat maneuvers, cover and concealment, situational modifiers, initiative actions, precisely defined spell effects, attacks of opportunity, hit-point tracking, effects of different types of damage (ability damage, energy drain, etc), and a myriad of class abilities and feats, it can be bogglingly complicated.

Not to me, perhaps a newbie who is exposed to D&D for the very first time, but we always recommend that he or she join a group who can teach them along the way. I mean, you're not expected to memorize the entire ruleset by the end of the week and be quizzed on it. It's a gradual learning experience. You begin with the basics and when you desire to perform crazy stunts and high-risk actions, you learn the new stuff.

 

[Merova]

Hero System

If you really need affirmation in black and white in the rulebooks, there it is. Those that don't need this sort of affirmation don't need to look it up in the first place.

Hi all!

So, my Hero PC was caught in a sonic entanglement, bypassing my numerous Amazonian damage reductions by targeting my susceptibility to sonic attacks. Curse those GMs who make disadvantages actually disadvantage, rather than the powergaming treat that they are meant to be!! Well, since this is Hero system we're talking about, I knew that this meant that I'd be sidelined for about an hour while the others saved the day.

So, I began paging through the rulebook, when I discovered an amazing passage:


However, you may find that certain rules do not suit your style of play, or make it more difficult for you to do what you want to in the game. If that's the case, change the rules! The whole point of gaming is to have fun, so you shouldn't let the rules hold you back if they're getting in the way of that goal. (Hero 5th, p.356)


Wow! Hero has a "Golden Rule." I guess that makes it a "story telling" type of game after all. All these years, we played in ignorance. We thought the game was all about hexes, savvy point allocation, and calculating the speed chart, but it was actually about fun!

So, with this newfound understanding of the game, I explained to my GM that the game gives a clear rule mandating fun in the game. I found my poor Amazon's plight to be decidedly unfun, so for this scene the rule that was causing her to be so disadvantaged ought to be changed.

The accursed scoundrel didn't buy my argument. Drat!

Thanks for reading this true (but somewhat absurdly embellished) tale of "story telling" game mechanics.

---Merova

 

[Tom Cashel]

Okay...everyone's talking about specific passages pointing out that rules shouldn't get in the way of the flow of the game, and you shouldn't get hooked up on rules so much that you're not having fun, etc. And yes, imagination and a "let's pretend" attitude are all you need to role-play and have a great time.

But my point is that the Storyteller system emphasizes "story" more than the d20 system. Some people seem to want to have a "d20 is better/no it's not" discussion. (That doesn't interest me very much; I like both systems quite a bit).

D20 system emphasizes character, skills, improvement over time, and (generally) an open-ended style of play where players can go visit any "encounter area" they want, in any order they want. Railroading, in d20, is generally a bad thing.

Storyteller system books all begin by telling you the Theme and the Mood. There aren't "scenarios" or "adventures"--rather there are Stories made up of Scenes, and they are expected to have a strong Beginning, a Middle, and an End (in literary terms).

You can talk the talk about d20 being story-friendly, and how it supports stories, and I agree completely. But I counter that the Storyteller rules emphasize story by making it the single most important element of any game session, and having a ruleset that uses Literary Terms to describe its component parts.

Sorry for not being clear before, but that's what I mean. d20 rules have six kinds of dice and unique mechanics for umpteen-hundred spells, feats, prestige classes, etc. etc. Storyteller rules use one kind of dice, one kind of roll, and although there are umpteen-hundred gifts, clans, tribes, powers, etc. (and I'd never accuse Mage of having a "simple" ruleset), the books most definitely favor background over mechanics.

And both systems are great in their own way.

 

[Voneth]

The short explaination culled from a mailing list I belonged to ...

"As for voting for three different games I'd like the group to play, I'd nominate d20 Rokugon, Forgetten Realms and Scarred lands."

Funny how this player showed up to the game with the entire FR 3.0 library in his car.

Or for my medium explantion boiled down real life comments I have said and heard .....
Von:
"Hey do you want to play 'XX' its got a cool setting and ..."
Players:
"Nah, we'd rather play D&D"

Von:
"Hey do you want to play 'd20:XX' its got a ..."
Player"
"Sure, can I bring about three friends along?"

I have noticed pretty much that if a decent GM offers a d20 game with a chance to kill stuff, the players will pretty much take any setting offered to them as window dressing and form a waiting line.

Now for my essay.

The biggest things going for D&D D20? 1) Name recognition 2) Availablitity ...

I can only speak for myself. d20 have a very long history dating back to the granddaddy of all RPG, Dungeons & Dragons (aka Advanced Dungeons & Dragons).

It is a flexible toolbox of options.

I think these are close, but IMHO, the real reasons have to deal with three things.

1.) Money.
It seems that a lot of customers think the d20 trademark is a promise that everything under the book cover can be used in their games with little to no adjustment, so a d20 purchase is much less an investment of time and money compared to another systems. In truth, that isn't what d20 is about (its really about WotC saving its money by not getting involved in tiny projects it can't justify at it's level of business while selling more core books). But just as GOO about how many customers complained about how they were "betrayed" that they couldn't just drop the JLA into their Forgotten Realms game with SAS.

2.) Convenience.
Perhaps the best thing d20 did was to be sold as D&D. Trust me, in old D&D it took pages to fit a wierd setting into the game (Dark Sun, etc.) Now it's a lot easier becuase of the tool box approach. WotC managed to bring the majority of the hardliners and lost customers back to the fold by selling a more up to date game to everyone. The lost customers saw a lot of the 1990s rpg mechanics they liked in other games in one place, and the hardliners got to pretend they were only "adjusting" instead of learning a new game. Another part of the comfort zone is that D&D's best selling settings are pretty much the same setting, cosmopolitan pseudo Dark Ages. You just grab D&D, make a character and you go. No need to really learn a new setting (oh, okay these guys in this world are the Czarist necromancers, while in last week's world it was Roman necromancers). Helps a lot for pick up games.

3.) Storytelling?? In my personal experience, most PLAYERS couldn't give a spit about story, that's just the excuse to get to the next fight. Any game rules can be made to tell a story, and decent rules can be made into a combat exercise, just as any Sabbat and Werewolf player. I am not surprised that more players don't just openly giggle when a GM talks about story.

 

[Psion]

So, I began paging through the rulebook, when I discovered an amazing passage:


However, you may find that certain rules do not suit your style of play, or make it more difficult for you to do what you want to in the game. If that's the case, change the rules! The whole point of gaming is to have fun, so you shouldn't let the rules hold you back if they're getting in the way of that goal. (Hero 5th, p.356)


Wow! Hero has a "Golden Rule." I guess that makes it a "story telling" type of game after all. All these years, we played in ignorance. We thought the game was all about hexes, savvy point allocation, and calculating the speed chart, but it was actually about fun!

So, with this newfound understanding of the game, I explained to my GM that the game gives a clear rule mandating fun in the game. I found my poor Amazon's plight to be decidedly unfun, so for this scene the rule that was causing her to be so disadvantaged ought to be changed.

The accursed scoundrel didn't buy my argument. Drat!

Obviously, it fit the GM's style. Duh!