Riddles!

[MarkB]

what are people's opinions on riddles requiring 'in-universe' information to solve as a means to invoke various kinds of knowledge checks? or otherwise having the party seek out ways to learn the required information.

That sounds pretty cumbersome. A riddle should be something the party could figure out intuitively right then and there if they're smart about it, not something they have to go away and research, or guess at based on limited information.

Which isn't to say they shouldn't use in-world information, just that it should be information they have, then and there.

As an example, here's one that came up in a Dungeons of Drakkenheim actual play podcast I heard recently.

"Raise a glass and drink to the Queen's true name. What is purer than water, yet more deadly than poison? If you drink it a little you'll take no harm, yet if it's all you drink you'll surely die."
And there was a selection of five common drinks to choose from, all colour-themed.

The crucial in-world information for that one was that this riddle was to gain entrance to the lair of the Queen of Thieves, who was known to go by many names, but none knew her true identity.

The players didn't get it. Their characters all chose poorly, and we're knocked out by the drinks they imbibed.

 

[Distracted DM]

That sounds pretty cumbersome. A riddle should be something the party could figure out intuitively right then and there if they're smart about it, not something they have to go away and research, or guess at based on limited information.

Which isn't to say they shouldn't use in-world information, just that it should be information they have, then and there.

As an example, here's one that came up in a Dungeons of Drakkenheim actual play podcast I heard recently.

"Raise a glass and drink to the Queen's true name. What is purer than water, yet more deadly than poison? If you drink it a little you'll take no harm, yet if it's all you drink you'll surely die."
And there was a selection of five common drinks to choose from, all colour-themed.

The crucial in-world information for that one was that this riddle was to gain entrance to the lair of the Queen of Thieves, who was known to go by many names, but none knew her true identity.

The players didn't get it. Their characters all chose poorly, and we're knocked out by the drinks they imbibed.

Ok so I think the answer is "nothing" but in this example how do you choose nothing and have something happen?
This one is definitely higher on the difficulty; IMO there should've been a sixth cup that was on its side, suggesting it was knocked over (but in reality that's the "nothing" option. But I guess that might make it a little too easy

 

[MarkB]

Ok so I think the answer is "nothing" but in this example how do you choose nothing and have something happen?

So, for additional context, they were told that they needed to choose what to drink before entering the final corridor to the queen, and if they chose wrong they would be poisoned before they reached her. Since the routes leading up to that point had been heavily trapped, it was easy to infer that it was the corridor that would be poisoned.

Edit: Also, none of the cups were filled. There was a construct bartender who would fill them as directed.

 

[CreamCloud0]

That sounds pretty cumbersome. A riddle should be something the party could figure out intuitively right then and there if they're smart about it, not something they have to go away and research, or guess at based on limited information.

Which isn't to say they shouldn't use in-world information, just that it should be information they have, then and there.

As an example, here's one that came up in a Dungeons of Drakkenheim actual play podcast I heard recently.

"Raise a glass and drink to the Queen's true name. What is purer than water, yet more deadly than poison? If you drink it a little you'll take no harm, yet if it's all you drink you'll surely die."
And there was a selection of five common drinks to choose from, all colour-themed.

The crucial in-world information for that one was that this riddle was to gain entrance to the lair of the Queen of Thieves, who was known to go by many names, but none knew her true identity.

The players didn't get it. Their characters all chose poorly, and we're knocked out by the drinks they imbibed.

So, for additional context, they were told that they needed to choose what to drink before entering the final corridor to the queen, and if they chose wrong they would be poisoned before they reached her. Since the routes leading up to that point had been heavily trapped, it was easy to infer that it was the corridor that would be poisoned.

Edit: Also, none of the cups were filled. There was a construct bartender who would fill them as directed.

i'm struggling to see how all those factors added up to any figurable solution (choose what to drink=drink nothing/anything the corridor is poisoned, that is a wild leap of metaphor to me unless one of the drinks is antitoxin but how were you meant to figure out which drink would be said antitoxin, the queen's true name(of which it seemed she had none) or anything else in the riddle seems to hold no bearing on what they're meant to drink) but that's tangential to the fact that seeing as they lacked the apropriate information to figure out the riddle they were functionally guessing, the riddle was impossible to 'solve' and thus they would have to return with more information later(even if that information was only the knowledge of the drinks the consumed the first time) if they still wanted to gain entry.

 

[MarkB]

i'm struggling to see how all those factors added up to any figurable solution (choose what to drink=drink nothing/anything the corridor is poisoned, that is a wild leap of metaphor to me unless one of the drinks is antitoxin but how were you meant to figure out which drink would be said antitoxin, the queen's true name(of which it seemed she had none) or anything else in the riddle seems to hold no bearing on what they're meant to drink) but that's tangential to the fact that seeing as they lacked the apropriate information to figure out the riddle they were functionally guessing, the riddle was impossible to 'solve' and thus they would have to return with more information later(even if that information was only the knowledge of the drinks the consumed the first time) if they still wanted to gain entry.

Maybe I'm just not telling it well. It seemed pretty obvious to me by the second repetition (and they got lots of repetitions) that it was "nothing" as @Distracted DM guessed.

 

[Vexorg]

My favorite use of riddles was when my party was going to talk to a hag. They found the hag's hut locked, and in front was a talking giant frog and talking giant scorpion having a riddle contest.

The frog's riddle:
I look like a bird
But I'm not in the sky
I swim through the river
But always stay dry

The scorpion's riddle:
I have one leg
And an earthen gown
A deathly sire
And a velvet crown

When one player figured an answer and said it out loud, both animals got angry at the party for ruining the game and attacked.

Of course the answers were clues to unlocking the door.

Spoiler: Answers

reflection and mushroom

 

[CleverNickName]

@Vexorg

Spoiler

I guessed "Shadow" for the first one. I guess technically the answer works...

 

[Deset Gled]

@Vexorg

Spoiler

I guessed "Shadow" for the first one. I guess technically the answer works...

Which is a good example of how riddles can be a little sketchy in RPGs. Sometimes people come up with an answer that completely solves it, but wasn't the intended answer. How does the magic respond to that?

It's not a terribly hard problem for a good GM, but gets into the "when is it okay to fudge?" territory.

 

[MarkB]

@Vexorg

Spoiler

I guessed "Shadow" for the first one. I guess technically the answer works...

Same here. It's one of those where you can see how the actual answer fits better once you know it, but the one you came up with also works. Of course, the tricky part is that it's probably not nearly as applicable to solving the door puzzle.

 

[CleverNickName]