Rogues and Melee Basic Attacks

[the Jester]

One of the problems that rogues have is that whenever they get a melee basic attack, it's gonna be strength based. If you aren't a strength based rogue, your melee basics probably suck.

So here's an elegant solution for pcs concerned with such things.


Finessed Strike--- Rogue Attack 1
You attack using finesse rather than strength.
At Will; Martial, Weapon
Standard Action; Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC.
Hit: 1[W] + Dexterity modifier. Increase damage to 2[W] + Dexterity modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use Finessed Strike in place of a melee basic attack.

What do you think?

 

[Zelc]

I don't see anything wrong with it.

 

[haran.banjo]

I'd rather work it out as a Feat. Weapon Finesse or something like that, that allows the usage of DEX instead of STR for melee basic attacks if the attack is done with a light blade.

 

[El Mahdi]

I'd rather work it out as a Feat. Weapon Finesse or something like that, that allows the usage of DEX instead of STR for melee basic attacks if the attack is done with a light blade.

Does anyone have an idea why the 4E designers decided to not transport this over from 3E? As far as I can see it doesn't unbalance or restrict anything in the 4E mechanics. Any ideas?

 

[Cadfan]

I just assumed that it was part of making your secondary stats important. Strength is a secondary stat for a rogue. If you want to have decent charge attacks and opportunity attacks, and to synergize well with a warlord, put some points into it.

Just charging you a feat seems like the feat becomes a "must have." It also seems like the feat would be sort of too good- it turns an entire ability score into a dump stat, honestly. What other feat does that? But then again, they made a feat like that for Swordmages, so who knows what we'll see in the future.

I do kind of like the OP's solution. Using an at will to obtain this ability seems like a more "real" payment than just spending a feat. I probably wouldn't make it work for ALL basic melee attacks, though. I'd make it work for opportunity attacks and basic melee attacks granted by a power. Then I'd give it something else extra besides just 1[W]+Dex. And I'd do the same thing for charges, except I might make that a pair or trio of encounter or daily powers. Some already exist, in fact.

So, OP, what about this?

VICIOUS REPRISAL--- Rogue Attack 1
You attack using finesse rather than strength.
At Will; Martial, Weapon
Standard Action; Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding a light blade.
Target: One creature.
Attack: Dexterity vs. AC.
Hit: 1[W] + strength. Increase damage to 2[W] + strength modifier at 21st level.
Special: You may use Finessed Strike in place of an opportunity attack or a basic melee attack granted by a power. If you have combat advantage, you may deal sneak attack damage with this attack even if you have already dealt sneak attack damage this round.

Now it accomplishes a couple of different goals.

First, it gives you something to do with opportunity attacks and extra attacks granted by a warlord.

Second, it has a purpose other than just being used for opportunity attacks and extra attacks- you can use it when you have already used your sneak attack for the round. For example, if you've used an action point to make an extra attack, and you want to deal sneak attack again.

Third, it doesn't replace strength complete. Strength is still useful for charges, and its even useful (though not mandatory) for rogues when they use this power. If strength isn't involved at all in this power, it moves another step towards being a dump stat. This version will see use by dex/cha rogues who want to dump strength, but also by dex/str rogues who want the extra advantages it grants.

I don't know if its balanced, but its a thought.

 

[Wraith Form]

The Forgotten Realms Player's Guide has the Intelligent Blademaster feat, which allows a swordmage to use his Intel modifier instead of Str modifier when making a basic attack with a melee weapon.

I see no reason why that can't be used for Rogues and Dex, Clerics and Wis, and Warlocks and Charisma (among other combinations).

 

[erf_beto]

I suppose the Swordmage gets that feat and the rogue doesnt because the first is a defender and part of his job is dishing damage through opportunity attacks (i.e. basic melee) when enemies move, while the second is a more-or-less squishy striker whose job is to move around dishing damage on his turn.

Just a thought...

 

[Wraith Form]

Excellent point. I still have a long way to understanding the balance of the classes in this iteration of D&D.

 

[cmbarona]

I'm not so sure that's the issue here. After all, if a warlord grants a MBA to a two-weapon ranger, then their attacks are going to be pretty nice, too. Then there's the case I've run into plenty: Rogue misses, Warlord uses an attack to grant them a MBA, and the real damage is in sneak attack dice. If a Ranger can use a main stat, to do his job (i.e., tons of damage), then why not Rogues?

Edit: Also, the Halfling Quickblade PP in MP gives halflings a daily stance that grants MBAs when an opponent misses on an OA. Why give MBAs to characters designed to pump DEX and CHA, not STR? I think this whole thing is some strange oversight of the designers over at WOTC.

 

[Cadfan]

Edit: Also, the Halfling Quickblade PP in MP gives halflings a daily stance that grants MBAs when an opponent misses on an OA. Why give MBAs to characters designed to pump DEX and CHA, not STR? I think this whole thing is some strange oversight of the designers over at WOTC.

Maybe they're intentionally balancing the ability around the idea that the follow up attack won't be very good, but will be more than nothing. You know, like with the follow up attack from Riposte Strike.

Plus, lets say you design your character following PHB advice. Chances are that's their baseline, after all. You're a halfling. You're using the standard array. You're putting your stat points into the places WOTC suggested.

Your stat block will probably be, at first level and including racial bonuses, 13/12/18/10/11/16. At paragon tier, you will have 14/13/21/13/14/19.

Your melee basic attack will be three points behind your dex attacks. That's usable. At level 28, it will have dropped behind by another 2 points. That's as far as its going to go.