Rogues and Melee Basic Attacks
I personally don't think that Weapon Finesse is a very good idea for a feat as it has been discussed. The problem I see with it is that the developers of this game have taken great pains to balance the classes against one another and to also balance the importance of the different stats to each Character.
Simply put, this idea of being able to spend one feat to be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength in your Melee Basic Attacks totally makes Strength a next to useless stat for most Rogue builds. With this feat, why would I ever develop my Strength beyond a token level as a Rogue? I could very easily nerf a character by pumping up my Dexterity because I now get an awesome defense bonus, and yet still reap the benefit of an increased attack value as well. What I am basically trying to say is that there is no real tradeoff here. However, there is a very easy way to acheive this tradeoff.
Basically, you allow the feat to only affect ability to hit, and keep the modifier for damage based on Strength. As for how this would be written up, maybe something like this:
What this would do is to expand this feat out to being a truly useful feat for the dexterity based Martial Character, but still require you to rely on a secondary stat in order to acheive any real bonus to damage, unless you are of course using a power or ability that dealt damage based on your dexterity.
ideas?
Dallas Honeycutt
Simply put, this idea of being able to spend one feat to be able to substitute Dexterity for Strength in your Melee Basic Attacks totally makes Strength a next to useless stat for most Rogue builds. With this feat, why would I ever develop my Strength beyond a token level as a Rogue? I could very easily nerf a character by pumping up my Dexterity because I now get an awesome defense bonus, and yet still reap the benefit of an increased attack value as well. What I am basically trying to say is that there is no real tradeoff here. However, there is a very easy way to acheive this tradeoff.
Basically, you allow the feat to only affect ability to hit, and keep the modifier for damage based on Strength. As for how this would be written up, maybe something like this:
Nimble Strike
Prerequisites: Dex 14,
Benefit: This Character is able to use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to hit when striking with any Light Blade. This strike would do the normal stated damage for the power or attack used as listed in the power's description, (ie. if the power or ability reads that it would deal [1W]+Strength, this would still be the damage for that power or ability even though Dex was substituted for STR in the attack roll).
Prerequisites: Dex 14,
Benefit: This Character is able to use their Dexterity modifier in place of their Strength modifier to hit when striking with any Light Blade. This strike would do the normal stated damage for the power or attack used as listed in the power's description, (ie. if the power or ability reads that it would deal [1W]+Strength, this would still be the damage for that power or ability even though Dex was substituted for STR in the attack roll).
What this would do is to expand this feat out to being a truly useful feat for the dexterity based Martial Character, but still require you to rely on a secondary stat in order to acheive any real bonus to damage, unless you are of course using a power or ability that dealt damage based on your dexterity.
ideas?
Dallas Honeycutt
That's a really good idea. But I'm not sure it works in the context of a rogue, because sneak attack means that damage from other attacks isn't enough.
So how about this?
Trickster Blade
Feat
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Rogue, Artful Dodger
You may use your charisma modifier instead of your strength modifier for attack and damage rolls when you make basic melee attacks.
Now look at what we have. Strength is important for basic melee attacks, and rogues with high strength are rewarded. Brutal Scoundrels have a shtick, too- they're the ones who are better at general brawling. Meanwhile, Charisma can substitute if you're an artful dodger, but you still have to pay a feat because you're trying to become good at something that isn't part of your shtick.
If you're running an artful dodger build and you want to dump strength, this will give you an effective +2 or +3 attack and damage on your basic melee attacks at first level. And it will grow over time. It will still be a few points behind your normal attacks, but since regular melee attacks aren't your thing as a rogue, that's ok. Its still a huge improvement that makes your basic melee attacks viable at higher levels.
So how about this?
Trickster Blade
Feat
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Rogue, Artful Dodger
You may use your charisma modifier instead of your strength modifier for attack and damage rolls when you make basic melee attacks.
Now look at what we have. Strength is important for basic melee attacks, and rogues with high strength are rewarded. Brutal Scoundrels have a shtick, too- they're the ones who are better at general brawling. Meanwhile, Charisma can substitute if you're an artful dodger, but you still have to pay a feat because you're trying to become good at something that isn't part of your shtick.
If you're running an artful dodger build and you want to dump strength, this will give you an effective +2 or +3 attack and damage on your basic melee attacks at first level. And it will grow over time. It will still be a few points behind your normal attacks, but since regular melee attacks aren't your thing as a rogue, that's ok. Its still a huge improvement that makes your basic melee attacks viable at higher levels.
Here is an approach that may provide a well-balanced alternative. It provides an opportunity to choose to have a more precise attack in exchange for less damage.
Opportunistic Precision
Feat
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Rogue, Artful Dodger
When making a melee basic attack against a foe granting combat advantage, you can choose to use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus for your attack roll. If you do, and you choose to deal Sneak Attack damage, reduce the Sneak Attack damage by one die per tier (i.e. 1 die at Heroic, 2 dice at Paragon, 3 dice at Epic).
Opportunistic Precision
Feat
Heroic Tier
Prerequisite: Rogue, Artful Dodger
When making a melee basic attack against a foe granting combat advantage, you can choose to use your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus for your attack roll. If you do, and you choose to deal Sneak Attack damage, reduce the Sneak Attack damage by one die per tier (i.e. 1 die at Heroic, 2 dice at Paragon, 3 dice at Epic).
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The problem that i have with what you two are offering cadfan and Ghearus is that why should this type of feat be only usable for Rogues? Why not allow a Archer Ranger, or a Dex based fighter enjoy the benefits that a high Dex would offer? I think that my suggestion better allows for that. If you wish to use a short sword and have it hit with dex instead of Str, that's great, just prevent the damage associated with the feat and you have a well balanced feat.
I am thinking of a Swashbuckler type of character when i say that. i admit that it would be a bit of a stretch, but this feat would allow for it if you wanted to give it a try.
Another thing it would allow for is for the non-martial classes to be able to picvk up a Dagger and be pretty effective with it......
cmbarona
First Post
I think a swashbuckler fits more as a paragon path for Rogues or as a separate class in itself. As for picking up a dagger for non-martial classes, I suppose that can be investigated, but I'm not sure why. The point of a Rogue using Dex is that he is a front-line fighter who will get MBAs, depending on Warlord presence, DM provoking OAs, etc. I can see more of an argument for allowing Paladins to use Cha than for, say, Warlocks to use Cha.
CapnZapp
Legend
The discussion has possibly moved on, but one technical note regarding the at-wills previously discussed:
The mechanics seem wonky. As a power, when is it invoked/triggered?
(it seems it needs to be made into a "immediate interrupt/reaction" or a "no action" for you to be able to invoke it when it isnt your turn. Or as a stance.
But I realize the advantage of having it as an at-will too - the cost of nothaving one regular at-will...)
The mechanics seem wonky. As a power, when is it invoked/triggered?
(it seems it needs to be made into a "immediate interrupt/reaction" or a "no action" for you to be able to invoke it when it isnt your turn. Or as a stance.
But I realize the advantage of having it as an at-will too - the cost of nothaving one regular at-will...)
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