D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Mistwell]

Are you including the warlock when you’re arriving at the midpoint? Because I’m not sure that’s relevant to a question of how the Rogue compares to other martials.

I a neither including the warlock baseline nor the warlock blade build. The midpoint for damage appears to be almost exactly 50 DPR at 13th level. The rogue is close enough to that, that it's pretty meaningless.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Ok, this isn't up-to-date but it's good to have some numbers to work with. However, I would describe this as a different situation than the one you described here and here.

Yes, the DPS-specced Rogue is above the baseline, but the DPS-specced Rogue is not "near the top of damage," they are almost dead last among martials, slightly above the Devotion Paladin, which isn't the most DPS-specced Paladin subclass. The DPS-specced Barbarian from Playtest 7 is 26% above the Assassin Rogue; the Playtest 8 version would be more so, since they can Rage more often and Brutal Strike gives them a pseudo-Power Attack and happens more often than Brutal Critical did. I'd also note that the Battlemaster Fighter would be a lot higher than the Champion.

If your dps is not high enough, roll your dice faster...

If you meant DPR, being 3 to 6 points behind is not dead last.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I a neither including the warlock baseline nor the warlock blade build. The midpoint for damage appears to be almost exactly 50 DPR at 13th level. The rogue is close enough to that, that it's pretty meaningless.

I'd argue that increaseing sneak attack by one extra d6 at level 5 and/or 11 would not hurt though. Would bring them exactly in the middle. Or slightly above.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

People ask me to push the analysis into some higher levels so here we go.

Level 7 (only real change is the Rogue's increased SA).
Barbarian: 25.6
Fighter: 14.6
Rogue: 26.7

Level 9 (everyone has 20 in stat, more Rogue SA, Barb Rage +3 now. Fighters get weapon mastery, but that's mainly going to be for things like push or topple with a longsword)

Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 15.8
Rogue: 31.0

Level 11 (Rogue 6d6 SA, Fighter x3 attacks)
Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 23.8
Rogue: 34.4

Level 13 (Rogue 7d6 SA, Fighter Studied Attacks)
Barbarian: 29.7
Fighter: 26.4
Rogue: 37.7


Seems that if the rogue gets consistent sneak attack they are doing solid round to round damage.

The problem doesn't lies in unoptimized characters. The gap lies in characters with some sort of optimization. You can see the contrast here.

 

[Horwath]

I also don't disagree. I also would give the rogue something tied to his level that hepps him for skill checks.
So a scaling reliable talent was the first thing that came to my mind.

Level 2 should give skills a floor of 5+modifiers (like passive checks with disadvantage) or something.
Then rogue 7 should be 10+modifiers (passive check). Level 12 or 13 or so should give a floor of 15+modifiers (passive with advantage).
For ALL actively used skills.

This way, the rogue will be the skill machine. Failure nearly impossible.

Now that grapple and shove is decoupled from ability checks, I would not be concerned about balance as I would have been in 2014.

d20 is so swingy and totaly not good for skill checks that are few per session as oppose to attacks/saves, that d20 needs to either be replaced by 3d6 or rogues reliable talent should be applied to lesser degree to all proficient characters.

I.E:

untrained: normal d20 roll + modifiers.
proficiency: min d20 roll is 5.
expertise: min d20 roll is 8.
Rogue with reliable talent and proficiency: min d20 roll is 10.
Rogue with reliable talent and expertise: min d20 roll is 12.

this way, max and average roll(except rogue with talent and expertise) is kept the same, but all proficient and expert characters can avoid fumbling easy tasks in things that they should be competent.

 

[TheSword]

Please stop fighting amongst yourselves. Us martials have got to stick together - otherwise the true enemies (the casters) get free reign.

On a side note: I am loving the playtest rogue. Just reached level 6. I took the mastermind subclass because she is a kind of spy. I just feel like I get some many options in combat depending on the circumstances. Two weapon fighting with the vex/nick combat means I pretty much always get sneak damage in and get to save my bonus action to either move freely, get advantage on the rapier attack if I don’t move and it’s a high AC foe, or give advantage to a friend.

Vex, Nick, and aim, are pretty darn useful. I’m regularly doing 22-25 hp damage every round and contributing to combat but it feels like I can do quite a bit outside of combat too. Also the magic initiate feat is really helpful to give that extra little boost.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The problem doesn't lies in unoptimized characters. The gap lies in characters with some sort of optimization. You can see the contrast here.

Yup. This has been a problem with Rogues and it seems like it's going to get worse. You'd expect them to benefit from magic items and party synergy, but they actually benefit significantly less than other martials, to the point where if those are handed out equally, they fall far behind.

It's possible WotC could be partially fixing this "off screen" as it were by designing new magic items which synergize with Rogues better, but they'd have to be Rogue-specific, and even then, I suspect they'd benefit things like Rogue-Fighter more than an actual single-class Rogue.

It's interestingly bizarre because WotC's earlier plans for 2024 had Rogues being nerfed even harder than this, and it took some serious feedback to change that, so there must be some kind of strange perception at WotC that Rogues were "OP" (never true in 5E), which I guess sits alongside the apparent strange perceptions that natural weapons and natural armour are "OP" as are unarmed attacks.

 

[Horwath]

Yup. This has been a problem with Rogues and it seems like it's going to get worse. You'd expect them to benefit from magic items and party synergy, but they actually benefit significantly less than other martials, to the point where if those are handed out equally, they fall far behind.

It's possible WotC could be partially fixing this "off screen" as it were by designing new magic items which synergize with Rogues better, but they'd have to be Rogue-specific, and even then, I suspect they'd benefit things like Rogue-Fighter more than an actual single-class Rogue.

It's interestingly bizarre because WotC's earlier plans for 2024 had Rogues being nerfed even harder than this, and it took some serious feedback to change that, so there must be some kind of strange perception at WotC that Rogues were "OP" (never true in 5E), which I guess sits alongside the apparent strange perceptions that natural weapons and natural armour are "OP" as are unarmed attacks.

never managed to understand that someone thinks that rogues are OP. Sure, they can be fun to (role)play, but that is it.
Outside some unholy abomination of an assassin multiclass build, they are bottom tier with monks in 5E, closely followed by non-Gloomstalker ranger, which is together with Hexblade warlock a hot-fix on a class.
They tried with Mercy monk, which is decent.

also, returning to 3,9,13,17 subclass levels was also very bad decision.
Good things are being sacrificed on altar of compatibility, which in the end will be thrown out of the window as no one will use 5E materials in 2024 game without lots of house rules just a year in from printing of new books.

 

[Pauln6]

never managed to understand that someone thinks that rogues are OP. Sure, they can be fun to (role)play, but that is it.
Outside some unholy abomination of an assassin multiclass build, they are bottom tier with monks in 5E, closely followed by non-Gloomstalker ranger, which is together with Hexblade warlock a hot-fix on a class.
They tried with Mercy monk, which is decent.

also, returning to 3,9,13,17 subclass levels was also very bad decision.
Good things are being sacrificed on altar of compatibility, which in the end will be thrown out of the window as no one will use 5E materials in 2024 game without lots of house rules just a year in from printing of new books.

Lower tier for damage, perhaps, but top tier for versatility and fun.

 

[James Gasik]

So I asked my play group about Rogues, and it seems the perception is that they deal great damage (so many d6's, and if you crit, wow!) and they can make all the skill checks- their only real problem is being a bit squishy.

It's like how they think I should be casting Fireball exclusively, because with all those dice, naturally it's going to end combats, how could it not?

Heh. So a few things are combining here. One, Rogue damage is swingy and for people who like rolling dice, it seems incredible. Given that Rogues have a fairly easy time of triggering the damage, while it's not as good as it seems, it's fairly consistent with it's application, and ranged Rogues work very well, even managing to stay out of danger (what, you walked next to me? Bonus action Disengage, baby!) fairly well.

The effect of Expertise and Reliable Talent, plus more proficiencies, can't be understated. If the other characters in your party have 3-4 proficiencies each, including the potential for useless tool proficiency chosen for rp reasons, and you have 5 plus Thieves' Tools, that actually does something, and you can hit some really amazing DC's with ease, naturally there's going to be a perception that your class is busted somehow.

I remember when I ran Sunless Citadel out of Tales of the Yawning Portal. There are some doors with DC 20's to unlock (you're intended to get a key from the kobolds). The party Barbarian is an urchin, and he rolls a 14 on the die and fails ("what do you mean an 19 doesn't work?!).

The Rogue walks up, doesn't even ask for help, rolls a 13 and is like "It's done!", and the party cheered. Of course, what they couldn't know is that they really weren't intended to get through that door right away, but that's another story...

So I have met people who think Rogues are at least a little OP. It's a crazy thing, but they aren't crunching numbers- they see the Rogue always gets to roll multiple dice on damage, that they have great mobility, can get out of trouble if they need to, sneak around, make great skill checks, and they say "man, that class can do everything!"

It's kind of like the 2014 Monk in that respect. From an outside perspective, you have this kung fu class that can dodge arrows, sprint around like the flash, attack multiple times a turn, and completely invert a boss fight with stunning fist- holy naughty word that's busted, amirite?

But actually playing a Monk can tell a very different tale, when you end up ki starved without a short rest and get stuck in melee with your 16 AC and d8 Hit Dice.