D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

[Mistwell]

If the Fighter changes go live as they are, then that will be the skillful class. Rogue does okay once they hit lv7 and have expertise+reliable talent, but any true skill person will have 2 levels of Fighter in there.

I think (ranged) Rogue is okay with the Cunning Strikes giving them a support niche, but any kind of a support role should get compared to what the Bard is bringing, and that's a full caster who just locks down whole groups.

Rogues start with 4 skills and expertise in 2 skills, from level 1. They get 2 more expertise at 6th level and then reliable talent at 7th. Their subclasses then further boost their skills, with Arcane Trickster getting cantrips and spells which can boost skills and other out of combat elements, Assassin getting bonus proficiencies and Infiltration Expertise, Thief gets loads of out of combat skills and abilities, and Swashbuckler is the only subclass that doesn't have out of combat abilities from the subclass.

Compare this to the fighter, which gets 2 skills to start, Action Surge, Second Wind to ability checks a very limited number of times per day. For Subclasses, Battlemaster gets you 1 skill, Brawler was nixed, Champion gets you Remarkable Athlete, and Eldritch Knight gets you cantrips and spells.

In the end, Rogue clearly outclasses the Fighter for out of combat stuff. Fighter got a boost in that realm but it's still not close to Rogue.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

I don't really know how WotC could make Rogue better with current Skill System, if they really think Rogu's combat-power should be the bottom somehow.

Their only tool for skill changes really seems to be NUMBERS GO UP. Even within that framework, they could still let someone's class feature be delegating a task they failed at to a party member to try instead, or give Rogue a Proficiency amount per day extras to apply to skill checks (stuff like make it instant, or apply a buff to related future tasks, or duplicate your skill roll for a group challenge). They just need their own skill Thing, because if it's just about bigger numbers, Tactical Mind at lv2 is better than Expertise until lv17 (as long as Second Wind keeps recharging on short rests, anyway).

 

[Vikingkingq]

There're been guys on reddit and other forums calculating every Martial's DPR, and sadly Rogue has been the bottom in OneD&D. Almost every OneD&D Martial does a doubled DPR than the Rogue, while they're getting boosted in skills (which is great) and doing decent out-of-combat utilities, you can check the data here. Rogue's utilities and skills just cannot compensate its low DPR any longer.

This is why I think the Rogue needs a boost in Sneak Attack dice - even if the Rogue isn’t meant to be the top damage dealer among martials, this is too big a gap for Rogues’ expert tools to make up for.

 

[Mistwell]

That also might work, but Skill System has just been...5e's Skill System has been too DM-depandent, and its ceiling doesn't allow Rogue to be that special as an individual class anymore. A Ranger or a Dex Fighter with the new Second Wind are also be able to do a good job in Rogue-things, like picking locks, stealing, or sneaking and stuffs.

I don't really know how WotC could make Rogue better with current Skill System, if they really think Rogu's combat-power should be the bottom somehow.

Rogue's are near the top for damage. Their skills are near the top as well. You're just wrong on both issues.

You seem to think the burst bonus from Second Wind is all that's a factor, but that's just not how the game works. Out of combat isn't just one or two skill checks and then you're good - it's often many skill checks and fighters get a VERY limited number of those boosts an then they're out. Rogues keep going all day. That's super meaningful.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

The guys on Reddit are wrong. And no I am not going to do the math for you. Treantmonk did though and their damage came in at 74% over baseline.

The rogue tested through the roof. I think it got close to a 90% approval. This is the wrong tree to be barking up.

First of all, Treantmonk's Video was months ago while other Martials weren't boosted like now.
Secondly, if those numbers in the video are "74% over baseline", then the problem is other Martials and Half-Casters are doing "150~200% over baseline". The baseline means nothing if the gap has been that large. Go and try a lightly optimized Warlock and you'll see.
Thirdly, Rogue was that great when their Skills are much better than everyone. But after UA8, not anymore. And those boosts are good ones to those classes, which leaves Rogue in need of another update.

 

[Vikingkingq]

The guys on Reddit are wrong. And no I am not going to do the math for you. Treantmonk did though and their damage came in at 74% over baseline.

The rogue tested through the roof. I think it got close to a 90% approval. This is the wrong tree to be barking up.

I think Treantmonk’s analysis is probably accurate - but it’s out of date. He did that video when Playtest 6 had just come out, but there have now been several packets that have iterated on the Barbarian, Monk, and Fighter and his calculations understandably couldn’t have accounted for those changes. (I also think the Warlock baseline changed in Playtest 7 but I’m less familiar with that iteration.)

Likewise, I agree that the Rogue tested very well - I was one of the people giving it a big thumbs up - but that was in a different context than the current playtest environment.

 

[Mistwell]

First of all, Treantmonk's Video was months ago while other Martials weren't boosted like now.

No he tested them all and continues to compare them all. Rogues came in at 74% over baseline - that's near the top.

Secondly, if those numbers in the video are "74% over baseline", then the problem is other Martials and Half-Casters are doing "150~200% over baseline".

They were not. He did those calculations. Did you honestly think he didn't? Again, rogues are near the top.

The baseline means nothing if the gap has been that large.

The gap is very small.

Go and try a lightly optimized Warlock and you'll see.

Warlock comes in well below Rogue for damage. THEY ARE THE BASELINE. Don't argue with me - go take a look at his math. And no I don't trust randos on Reddit - they're often wrong.

Thirdly, Rogue was that great when their Skills are much better than everyone. But after UA8, not anymore. And those boosts are good ones to those classes, which leaves Rogue in need of another update.

I just did the comparison and they remain better at skills. Your focus on a very limited number of boosts compared to a rogue who can do it all day long is at best misrepresentative of how the game typically goes for out of combat challenges.

Again, Rogues came in around 90% approval. Your view is in the incredibly vast small minority. And given you have notions about math that are wrong, and notions about burst bonuses being always-on bonuses, it's not just opinion but you have factually wrong data as well.

 

[Vikingkingq]

Their only tool for skill changes really seems to be NUMBERS GO UP. Even within that framework, they could still let someone's class feature be delegating a task they failed at to a party member to try instead, or give Rogue a Proficiency amount per day extras to apply to skill checks (stuff like make it instant, or apply a buff to related future tasks, or duplicate your skill roll for a group challenge). They just need their own skill Thing, because if it's just about bigger numbers, Tactical Mind at lv2 is better than Expertise until lv17 (as long as Second Wind keeps recharging on short rests, anyway).

This is why in the survey I recommended giving the Rogue Expertise in Thieves Tools as an option, and giving them the optional rule in Xanathar’s about combining tool and skill proficiencies. This would make the Rogue the undisputed best option for dealing with traps and locks, something that can’t be duplicated by a Bard or Ranger.

 

[Mistwell]

I think Treantmonk’s analysis is probably accurate - but it’s out of date.

It is not - he keeps a running tally for all the classes they come out and continues the comparison. Rogues continue to rank very well.

Likewise, I agree that the Rogue tested very well - I was one of the people giving it a big thumbs up - but that was in a different context than the current playtest environment.

It really wasn't. The changes since then are relatively minor.

 

[Mistwell]

This is why in the survey I recommended giving the Rogue Expertise in Thieves Tools as an option

That would, apparently, be nearly meaningless to the way they are changing tool use.