D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

[Minigiant]

There are two depending on what you do with those weapons. Duelist and Two Weapon Fighting. Meanwhile nothing actually uses Versatile.

In fact there is the same gap there for both the Zorro types and the Versatile types - nothing for a one handed weapon and empty hand/mail palmed glove regardless of whether you want to use the free hand to grab people or swing on ropes and chandeliers

Yeah there are gaps.

Not even close to true other than that there are fans who don't realise how much of the Swashbuckler's schtick is unnecessary in 5.24 thanks to steady aim and vex weapons.

First one of the Swashbuckler's level 3 abilities let's them walk away from a foe without taking opportunity attacks - the literal opposite of "attack it and stay there".

Second that ability to walk away is the only damage mitigation the subclass brings.

Third the swashbuckler dies horribly if they get double teamed. They lose their extra sneak attack if two foes are in melee with them.

The swashbuckler doesn't tank or join the fighter and barbarian in the thick of it. They either cut through the combat using monk-like mobility to get to the caster or archer in the back or duel people on the edge

That's my point.

The Swashbuckler subclass is a kludge to incentive single handed Finesse weapons and light armor

 

[Aldarc]

While true, that ignores how an 85 year old movie came up. You claimed "There are a lot of swashbuckling characters in the Middle Ages, at least as depicted in popular fiction" while citing an 85 year old movie that is obviously not part of 2024's "popular fiction". It's also old and currently obscure that the best reason for bringing it up so far was to claim that Gygax and them might have had fond childhood memories of it that they drew from at some point while creating d&d.

Yes, and that has been my point: from its inception, the swashbuckler has not been anachronistic to D&D. It was influential on Gary Gygax. Demanding more contempory examples is your unreasonable metric, but I'm not playing your game, @tetrasodium, particularly when you are keen to move the goalposts.

Since Gygax and them have been uninvolved in d&d long enough for kids to be born and grow old enough to drink, can you name anything slightly more relevant or admit that the 2018 robin good movie's riot police are probably more relevant to modern d&d than the 1938 movie.

People watched the 2018 Robin Hood movie? That's news to me. I would disagree about the relevance of the 1938 movie because it, and the earlier Douglas Fairbanks version, were highly influential on all the depictions of Robin Hood that followed in Hollywood and in the UK.

I think a more accurate example of what a D&D swashbuckler would look like would be Inigo & Westley's duel in The Princess Bride.

Certainly both men have the hit points of a D&D character!

Watch it get dismissed as ancient and irrelevant or some other excuse found to throw that example out.

 

[Minigiant]

The Swashbuckler and Duelist are not anachronistic with D&D.

The issue has been D&D difficulty with Dex and Dex melee weapons.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yes, and that has been my point: from its inception, the swashbuckler has not been anachronistic to D&D. It was influential on Gary Gygax. Demanding more contempory examples is your unreasonable metric, but I'm not playing your game, @tetrasodium, particularly when you are keen to move the goalposts.


People watched the 2018 Robin Hood movie? That's news to me. I would disagree about the relevance of the 1938 movie because it, and the earlier Douglas Fairbanks version, were highly influential on all the depictions of Robin Hood that followed in Hollywood and in the UK.

You can watch the entire 1922 public domain robinhood silent film here for free. Do you have any evidence wharsoever that Gygax or any of the others used either of the movies from 1922 & 1938 thirty-forty something years later in the way you are claiming, or is it just an overstated gut feeling ? Even if you do have that evidence, can you explain why it matters to modern d&d given how long they have been uninvolved in d&d?

I found the 2018 robinhood movie by looking for an example of a more recent robin hood movie not shot using theater fencing for the swordwork & was thrilled to find it had actual d&d style riot squad with semiautomatic crossbows so chose it as an example more relevant to modern d&d.

Watch it get dismissed as ancient and irrelevant or some other excuse found to throw that example out.

Actually I'd say that Inigo son of a swordsmith & duelist+henchman for a criminal who disliked dealing with the rich & privileged was more of a fighter & think that was discussed by others in this or another recent thread. Either way it's still a meme & at least close enough to being "popular fiction" to be far more relevant than the two movies you reference as examples of "popular fiction"

 

[Aldarc]

You can watch the entire 1922 public domain robinhood silent film here for free. Do you have any evidence wharsoever that Gygax or any of the others used either of the movies from 1922 & 1938 thirty-forty something years later in the way you are claiming, or is it just an overstated gut feeling ? Even if you do have that evidence, can you explain why it matters to modern d&d given how long they have been uninvolved in d&d?

I provided a link in an earlier comment to a source from one of Gygax's players. You failed to read it.

How about this? Can you explain to me why it matters to Modern D&D if swashbuckling is anachronistic? Because that is the actual issue at stake. What I do know is that the Swashbuckler was a subclass of the Rogue in Modern D&D, and that it was one of the more popular Rogue subclasses. So everything else is just a distraction from that fact.

Actually I'd say that Inigo son of a swordsmith & duelist+henchman for a criminal who disliked dealing with the rich & privileged was more of a fighter & think that was discussed by others in this or another recent thread. Either way it's still a meme & at least close enough to being "popular fiction" to be far more relevant than the two movies you reference as examples of "popular fiction"

Thank you for not disappointing my low expectations.

 

[tetrasodium]

I provided a link in an earlier comment to a source from one of Gygax's players. You failed to read it.

How about this? Can you explain to me why it matters to Modern D&D if swashbuckling is anachronistic? Because that is the actual issue at stake. What I do know is that the Swashbuckler was a subclass of the Rogue in Modern D&D, and that it was one of the more popular Rogue subclasses. So everything else is just a distraction from that fact.


Thank you for not disappointing my low expectations.

You've lost track of all the people you are arguing against. I'm not the one who was talking about anachronisms, I think that was @GrimCo . My point from the start has been that your choice of "popular culture" examples are nowhere near "popular culture" of today & they seem to be rocketing deeper into "obscure & ancient".

 

[Aldarc]

You've lost track of all the people you are arguing against. I'm not the one who was talking about anachronisms, I think that was @GrimCo . My point from the start has been that your choice of "popular culture" examples are nowhere near "popular culture" of today & they seem to be rocketing deeper into "obscure & ancient".

So your point was just to be belittling? Good to know. I think we're done here.

 

[tetrasodium]

So your point was just to be belittling? Good to know. I think we're done here.

I wouldn't call it "belittling" to point out that something is irrelevant.

 

[Remathilis]

The Swashbuckler and Duelist are not anachronistic with D&D.

The issue has been D&D difficulty with Dex and Dex melee weapons.

Because people scream about Dex is already God stat.

 

[Minigiant]

Because people scream about Dex is already God stat.

The funny thing is in the original first two editions Dex was the week stat and strength was the god that.

3e boosted the numbers on initiative, AC, and ranged attack bonus from Dex. And they gave it range damaged bonus and a gated way to get Dex into melee.

The funny part is none of this really helped swashbucklers, duelist, and two wielders. Melee Dex fighting sucks unless you're exploiting a class feature. Fair DEX based Melee is bad You had to cheat it with sneak attack or martial arts.

None of that matches the fiction of dreaded pirate captains, deadly samurai in robes, noble fencers, brave half naked gladiators, business suit blademasters, or assassin guild hitters.