D&D (2024) Maybe this is a bit late, but let's talk about Rogue's Niche, and What Rogue Should Be.

CreamCloud0

One day, I hope to actually play DnD.
Yesterday my party, which consisted of a druid, samurai, and skald bard took down some minotaurs, an Oni and a frost giant and we came to the conclusion that anachronism is a bit rubbish, isn't it?
i admit im at a bit of a loss to how you reached that conclusion when without anachronism that party probably isnt even possible in the first place
 

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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
These were films of Gary Gygax's childhood. If there was a movie list that accompanied Appendix N, you can bet that Errol Flynn's Robin Hood most definitely would have been on it.0
So? It's not like they had cable HBO & streaming back when Gyxax had his age measured in weeks & months☆.

Given the twelve page Boomers thread & the fact that the boomer generation splits from silent in 1946 it's probably safe to say that the near public domain 85 year old movie is not a significant chunk of what people think of when they imagine "fantasy", why is there so much focus on whatabiout'ing this ancient movie over anything more recent? Is it possible that there are no credible examples from more recent history?

☆Google& wikipedia says Gyxax was born in 1938
 


Aldarc

Legend
Gygax was slightly younger than my grandma. By the time my mom was kid in 60s, those films were old and pop culturally irrelevant for the most part. Just like movies from 90s are irrelevant for kids today.
So? It's not like they had cable HBO & streaming back when Gyxax had his age measured in weeks & months☆.

Given the twelve page Boomers thread & the fact that the boomer generation splits from silent in 1946 it's probably safe to say that the near public domain 85 year old movie is not a significant chunk of what people think of when they imagine "fantasy", why is there so much focus on this over anything more recent? Is it possible that there are no credible examples from more recent history?

☆Google& wikipedia says Gyxax was born in 1938
My father is about twenty years younger than Gary Gygax, and he grew up watching those movies. 🤷‍♂️

The idea that Gary Gygax had not seen these films or were influenced by them is pretty far-fetched in my opinion. It seems predicated that Gygax lived with his head in the sand unaware of some of the biggest medieval and fantasy films of the century. Likewise, I think that you two are underestimating the staying power of Errol Flynn's Robin Hood in the popular consciousness as a cultural icon.

Edit: There are some rumblings on the internet, where Gary Gygax suggested that the idea of Hit Points were influenced by Errol Flynn's duels against Basil Rathbone in Robin Hood. I found a link here.
 
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GrimCo

Adventurer
So your father is similar age to mine. It's not that they didn't see those movies. It's just they were old by the time our parents were teens and other things were "hip&cool".

If you poll people born in 80 or younger, chances are, most of them never seen that movie. At best, they saw few pics. If you ask gen Z, results would be even worse. At least our generation watched them when it came on tv cause there was nothing better.

To be fair, even iconic movies from 60-70's would get same treatment.

Also, Gygax is out of D&D picture for a looong time. Modern d&d isn't Gaygax's d&d.

Good comparison would be with isekai anime/manga. I had no idea what that was, had to google it. But it's all the rage among 20 something year olds.
 

Aldarc

Legend
So your father is similar age to mine. It's not that they didn't see those movies. It's just they were old by the time our parents were teens and other things were "hip&cool".

If you poll people born in 80 or younger, chances are, most of them never seen that movie. At best, they saw few pics. If you ask gen Z, results would be even worse. At least our generation watched them when it came on tv cause there was nothing better.

To be fair, even iconic movies from 60-70's would get same treatment.

Also, Gygax is out of D&D picture for a looong time. Modern d&d isn't Gaygax's d&d.

Good comparison would be with isekai anime/manga. I had no idea what that was, had to google it. But it's all the rage among 20 something year olds.
You're right. Modern D&D isn't Gygax's D&D. Modern D&D cares even less about anachronistic elements or notions of historical accuracy that is being projected on them by your argument, which is why a swashbuckler would not be out of place in Modern D&D. So long and have a good day.
 

.There is fighting style for For heavy weapons and light weapons and versatile weapons and soon thrown weapons and unearned combat.

But a no fighting style for finesse weapons.
There are two depending on what you do with those weapons. Duelist and Two Weapon Fighting. Meanwhile nothing actually uses Versatile.

In fact there is the same gap there for both the Zorro types and the Versatile types - nothing for a one handed weapon and empty hand/mail palmed glove regardless of whether you want to use the free hand to grab people or swing on ropes and chandeliers.
There are fans upset that the Swashbuckler subclass is not in the new PHB. But what does this Swashbuckler subclass do.

The Swashbuckler subclass lets the Rogue fight like a Fighter. You walk up to enemies attack it and stay there drawing their attention, and mitigate there damage. That's traditionally what fighters, barbarians, paladins, and rangers do.
Not even close to true other than that there are fans who don't realise how much of the Swashbuckler's schtick is unnecessary in 5.24 thanks to steady aim and vex weapons.

First one of the Swashbuckler's level 3 abilities let's them walk away from a foe without taking opportunity attacks - the literal opposite of "attack it and stay there".

Second that ability to walk away is the only damage mitigation the subclass brings.

Third the swashbuckler dies horribly if they get double teamed. They lose their extra sneak attack if two foes are in melee with them.

The swashbuckler doesn't tank or join the fighter and barbarian in the thick of it. They either cut through the combat using monk-like mobility to get to the caster or archer in the back or duel people on the edge.
 

And I'm now thinking of the swashbucking around the 90s (from late 80s to early 00s). Princess Bride. Mask of Zorro. Robin Hood. Robin Hood, Men in Tights. Pirates of the Caribbean. Puss in Boots from Shrek. Some Musketeering (muskerhounds are always ready!). Even James Bond was doing it in Die Another Day.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
You're right. Modern D&D isn't Gygax's D&D. Modern D&D cares even less about anachronistic elements or notions of historical accuracy that is being projected on them by your argument, which is why a swashbuckler would not be out of place in Modern D&D. So long and have a good day.
While true, that ignores how an 85 year old movie came up. You claimed "There are a lot of swashbuckling characters in the Middle Ages, at least as depicted in popular fiction" while citing an 85 year old movie that is obviously not part of 2024's "popular fiction". It's also old and currently obscure that the best reason for bringing it up so far was to claim that Gygax and them might have had fond childhood memories of it that they drew from at some point while creating d&d.

Since Gygax and them have been uninvolved in d&d long enough for kids to be born and grow old enough to drink, can you name anything slightly more relevant or admit that the 2018 robin good movie's riot police are probably more relevant to modern d&d than the 1938 movie.
 


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