Soulknife_Infiltrator
Explorer
This post might be veeeery long. Though the playtest has been over, but I still want to discuss this topic again when I finally get a full reveiw of the UAs
This post would not be a post about "How would I design it", but more like "What caused people arguing about Rogues, and what ways have been most suggested by players during the Playtests?"
Quick Summary
Rogue’s been suffering from lack of a clear niche. Some regards it a Martial, but some regards it a Supportive Class, while some thinks Rogue's combat power can’t make it a real Martial, while others find Rogue's utilities also can’t make it a competent supportive class, even not better than other Martials after UA7 and UA8 (Ranger, Monk, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, even Warlock etc.).
Half of the players thinks Rogue's been competent from 5E, since Rogue has both niche. But half of the players think Rogue has been weak for not doing great on both sides, and this has been quite true after UA7 and UA8.
I believe there were many people who mentioned those things in the Survey of UA2 Rogue. Things about how Rogue’s core features can’t keep up with the new edition when other classes got buffed, and how they can’t do much during a combat. This was quite fixed after the UA6, while Rogue has got their Cunning Strike. But the niche problem came back after UA7 and UA8, and it's been even worse.
First of all, this post is not saying Rogue must be the top at all things, but it has to have a clear niche, and few core features that are unique enough and better than other classes to make players won’t ask themselves “Why should I play this class when there’re other classes that could do a better job with the same flavor?”. I'll be discussing why Rogue's been suffering from Niche Problem after UA7 and UA8 in the following.
Utility-wise
Rogue’s utility mainly comes from their skills, but there are too many classes are good at skill checks now, thus making Rogue losing their niche as a supportive class.
In UA7, Barbarian has been able to use Str for five useful skills (Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, and Survival) while raging. It not only lasts for 10-minutes now, but also provides advantage on those skills since you’re using Str on those checks.
In UA8, Fighter can even outshine Rogue’s skills before they reach Level 7 with Tactical Mind.
In my former playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Tactical Mind, without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before Level 7, which was a surprising result for me.
Before Level 7, Rogue only has more extra +2/+3. In many scenarios, more +2/+3 in certain skills just couldn’t compete a +D10 to any random check that you've failed. There aren't that many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it cost nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass.
What really makes me feel like my Fighter friend was outshining me is that rolling an additional D10 really makes players feel like they’re doing something, and they were so good at passing that check.
It provides players a chance to flavor the scene as something like “Expert’s Instinct” moment, rather than “oh, it’s a 5, I passed/failed”.It brings more fun, feels more active, and more exciting, but saying “you can add your proficiency in that check”, just tastes less “Expert” than a roll an additional D10 at a critical moment.
Especially it feels bad when you don’t get that extra +2 on the skill you ought to be good at but you didn’t Expertise for you don’t have that many. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is the Soulknife Rogue. For the same reason, Soulknife Rogue has also been one of the most favored subclass among players. Above all, all these Features like Tactical Mind and the new Rage could be recovered by short-rest now.
We also have more Full-Casters and Half-Casters that had or getting Expertise and skill enhancements, while they already possess great utilities with spells. Like Bards and Rangers who possess Extra-Attacks, Pass Without Trace, Expertise, Skill-Enhancements, Fighting Styles, Spells, Rituals at the same time.
These changes are making Rogue less special in skills and making them feels mundane, since a skill check only has two results, “you succeeded” or “you failed”. There’s no difference between you exceed the DC by 3 or you exceed the DC by 10 under the current skill system.
Combat-wise
Rogue’s been facing serious problems for they lack of extra-attack and other Martials getting more features that resemble Rogue’s.
The UA8 Monk has been able to Dash, Disengage as a Bonus Action without costs, just like the Cunning Action. Deflect Attack has also been a purely better version of Uncanny Dodge, both mathematically and mechanically.
According to the calculation made by many players, Uncanny Dodge is only better than Deflect Attacks when a Rogue takes 30+ damage from one hit at level 5. For most monsters that players would be facing at level 5, that's nearly impossible to meet one.
Furthermore, Barbarian is also getting their own Strikes. Fighter has also been able to Disengage and move more as a Bonus Action, though with costs.
Above that, Rogue also has less available Weapon Masteries to choose since they're bounded to Finese Weapons, while half of the effects made by Cunning Strike could be replicated by Masteries at no costs.
The Importance of Extra-Attack
Most importantly, most Martial-related spells, magic items, and class features still only benefits multi-attacks.
Like the new Adventure Gear version of Net, and the Breath Weapon of the Dragonborn, they can replace one of the attacks from one Attack Action, but Rogue only has one attack from an Attack Action, thus making Rogue the worst Net user except for Thief, which seems odd to me.
Multi-Attacks also make Weapen Mastery Effects more reliable and versatile than Cunning Strike without costs, and some them may even stack.
The worst thing about this has been every class that isn’t a full-caster can attack twice, except for Rogue, which makes Rogue irrelevant to the half of the game, while the other half of the game are about spells, which Rogue also doesn’t have those. It just leaves no room for Rogue to optimize like other classes.
While in this case, Sneak Attack still scales too little compared to other classes since Level 5. Full-casters are getting their 3rd level spells at 5, and other classes that aren’t full-casters are doubling their DPR with extra-attack.
But Rogue only gets one D6, and controls that costs damage even more. These controls from Cunning Strike are good but not enough for them to be a competent supportive class. There were statistics made by other players about how much damage could 5e2024 Martials do, and Rogue’s been the lowest.
Even some full-casters like Bard and Wizard that have the access to the multi-attacks can even deal more damage and be a better Martial than a Rogue, despite of being a full-caster with crazy utilities.
Rogue's Niche
There has been two voices in the community about what a Rogue is. One is Rogue’s been a Martial, for obvious reason that they can’t cast and fight like a Martial.
One is Rogue’s been a supportive class for they have good skills back in 5e and they don’t have extra-attacks.
To me, Rogue still feels like a Martial both in theme and in playstyle. It is a non-caster without magical spells after all. The subclasses like the Assassin, Scout, Swashbuckler are definitely supposed to be Martials.
Suggestions
There has been a lot of suggestions about how to make Rogue find its niche.
If we’re making it a real supportive-class, most popular suggestion is making Rogue able to do more things with skills, and let them be able to fulfil extra tasks with skill checks while others can't. Make their check-results better and different from other classes.
Though, the easiest way of doing this might have been making Rogue the “physical Wizard”. Things like you can make effects that works similar to some spells by skill checks.
If we’re making it a real Martial, there’re many ways to do this:
1. Give them extra-attack.
This is the simplest way of making Rogue a Martial. Their DPR would also be acceptable since they don’t have Fighting Styles, Spells, and the access to Heavy Weapons and many Martial Weapons, thus making them unable to pick Feats like Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Great Weapon Master that most Martials would pick.
Luckily, Sneak Attack is not easy to trigger and scales really slow. Adding extra-attack only allows Rogue to catch up with others. But the most controversial part of this solution is that many players believe the extra-attack would eliminates the flavor of Rogue, which I totally understand. Though, I’m not against this solution.
2. Make Sneak Attack Scales every level.
This has been the simplest and the most accepted solution. All we need to do is making Sneak Attack once “per round” instead of once “per turn”, as most Rogue players have suggested and wanted.
Players are happy to see Sneak Attack becomes once per round when the damage goes up, like “you can only Sneak Attack once before the start of your next turn”.
They just need their Opportunity Sneak Attack and Ready Sneak Attack to be still available when players didn’t Sneak Attack in their own turn.
3. Sneak Attack remains the same, but make Uncanny Dodge into Uncanny Riposte.
There are many players that suggested since out-of-turn Sneak Attack has been a viable playstyle since 5e2014, then why not we just make it more accessible to all players, instead of only the experienced players and specific classes.
We just need to make Uncanny Dodge able to “attack back (with a melee attack) when you get hit by an attack”. Since the requirements of a Sneak Attack are very easy to break, like attacks from the outside of their range, or face to face when the Rogue is holding a Ranged Weapon, or prone, or many things, the overall DPR would be reasonably fine. Especially it only triggers when Rogue loses its HP. It’s a kind of resource costing either.
4. Add more Sneak Attack Dices by one at certain levels.
Those levels would be like 5, 9, 11, and 17. Though I believe this is far from enough, and not fixing any problems. An extra 3.5 damage is not making Rogue catches up with what extra-attack and 3rd level spells and more spell slots could bring.
My Opinion
I prefer Rogue to be a Martial, cuz it’s been too hard to make Rogue a real competent supportive class without giving them spells or making big changes to the class and the skill system.
So far, I haven’t seen much feasible suggestions in making Rogue a supportive class with simple solutions from the community.
It’s much easier to make it a Martial. But as a Martial, their features just don't justify for its DPR being the lowest currently.
But anyway, I believe firmly that the team would take good care of Rogue. I’m really looking forward to see a better Rogue with a clearer niche.
This post would not be a post about "How would I design it", but more like "What caused people arguing about Rogues, and what ways have been most suggested by players during the Playtests?"
Quick Summary
Rogue’s been suffering from lack of a clear niche. Some regards it a Martial, but some regards it a Supportive Class, while some thinks Rogue's combat power can’t make it a real Martial, while others find Rogue's utilities also can’t make it a competent supportive class, even not better than other Martials after UA7 and UA8 (Ranger, Monk, Fighter, Paladin, Barbarian, even Warlock etc.).
Half of the players thinks Rogue's been competent from 5E, since Rogue has both niche. But half of the players think Rogue has been weak for not doing great on both sides, and this has been quite true after UA7 and UA8.
I believe there were many people who mentioned those things in the Survey of UA2 Rogue. Things about how Rogue’s core features can’t keep up with the new edition when other classes got buffed, and how they can’t do much during a combat. This was quite fixed after the UA6, while Rogue has got their Cunning Strike. But the niche problem came back after UA7 and UA8, and it's been even worse.
First of all, this post is not saying Rogue must be the top at all things, but it has to have a clear niche, and few core features that are unique enough and better than other classes to make players won’t ask themselves “Why should I play this class when there’re other classes that could do a better job with the same flavor?”. I'll be discussing why Rogue's been suffering from Niche Problem after UA7 and UA8 in the following.
Utility-wise
Rogue’s utility mainly comes from their skills, but there are too many classes are good at skill checks now, thus making Rogue losing their niche as a supportive class.
In UA7, Barbarian has been able to use Str for five useful skills (Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, and Survival) while raging. It not only lasts for 10-minutes now, but also provides advantage on those skills since you’re using Str on those checks.
In UA8, Fighter can even outshine Rogue’s skills before they reach Level 7 with Tactical Mind.
In my former playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Tactical Mind, without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before Level 7, which was a surprising result for me.
Before Level 7, Rogue only has more extra +2/+3. In many scenarios, more +2/+3 in certain skills just couldn’t compete a +D10 to any random check that you've failed. There aren't that many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it cost nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass.
What really makes me feel like my Fighter friend was outshining me is that rolling an additional D10 really makes players feel like they’re doing something, and they were so good at passing that check.
It provides players a chance to flavor the scene as something like “Expert’s Instinct” moment, rather than “oh, it’s a 5, I passed/failed”.It brings more fun, feels more active, and more exciting, but saying “you can add your proficiency in that check”, just tastes less “Expert” than a roll an additional D10 at a critical moment.
Especially it feels bad when you don’t get that extra +2 on the skill you ought to be good at but you didn’t Expertise for you don’t have that many. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is the Soulknife Rogue. For the same reason, Soulknife Rogue has also been one of the most favored subclass among players. Above all, all these Features like Tactical Mind and the new Rage could be recovered by short-rest now.
We also have more Full-Casters and Half-Casters that had or getting Expertise and skill enhancements, while they already possess great utilities with spells. Like Bards and Rangers who possess Extra-Attacks, Pass Without Trace, Expertise, Skill-Enhancements, Fighting Styles, Spells, Rituals at the same time.
These changes are making Rogue less special in skills and making them feels mundane, since a skill check only has two results, “you succeeded” or “you failed”. There’s no difference between you exceed the DC by 3 or you exceed the DC by 10 under the current skill system.
Combat-wise
Rogue’s been facing serious problems for they lack of extra-attack and other Martials getting more features that resemble Rogue’s.
The UA8 Monk has been able to Dash, Disengage as a Bonus Action without costs, just like the Cunning Action. Deflect Attack has also been a purely better version of Uncanny Dodge, both mathematically and mechanically.
According to the calculation made by many players, Uncanny Dodge is only better than Deflect Attacks when a Rogue takes 30+ damage from one hit at level 5. For most monsters that players would be facing at level 5, that's nearly impossible to meet one.
Furthermore, Barbarian is also getting their own Strikes. Fighter has also been able to Disengage and move more as a Bonus Action, though with costs.
Above that, Rogue also has less available Weapon Masteries to choose since they're bounded to Finese Weapons, while half of the effects made by Cunning Strike could be replicated by Masteries at no costs.
The Importance of Extra-Attack
Most importantly, most Martial-related spells, magic items, and class features still only benefits multi-attacks.
Like the new Adventure Gear version of Net, and the Breath Weapon of the Dragonborn, they can replace one of the attacks from one Attack Action, but Rogue only has one attack from an Attack Action, thus making Rogue the worst Net user except for Thief, which seems odd to me.
Multi-Attacks also make Weapen Mastery Effects more reliable and versatile than Cunning Strike without costs, and some them may even stack.
The worst thing about this has been every class that isn’t a full-caster can attack twice, except for Rogue, which makes Rogue irrelevant to the half of the game, while the other half of the game are about spells, which Rogue also doesn’t have those. It just leaves no room for Rogue to optimize like other classes.
While in this case, Sneak Attack still scales too little compared to other classes since Level 5. Full-casters are getting their 3rd level spells at 5, and other classes that aren’t full-casters are doubling their DPR with extra-attack.
But Rogue only gets one D6, and controls that costs damage even more. These controls from Cunning Strike are good but not enough for them to be a competent supportive class. There were statistics made by other players about how much damage could 5e2024 Martials do, and Rogue’s been the lowest.
Even some full-casters like Bard and Wizard that have the access to the multi-attacks can even deal more damage and be a better Martial than a Rogue, despite of being a full-caster with crazy utilities.
Rogue's Niche
There has been two voices in the community about what a Rogue is. One is Rogue’s been a Martial, for obvious reason that they can’t cast and fight like a Martial.
One is Rogue’s been a supportive class for they have good skills back in 5e and they don’t have extra-attacks.
To me, Rogue still feels like a Martial both in theme and in playstyle. It is a non-caster without magical spells after all. The subclasses like the Assassin, Scout, Swashbuckler are definitely supposed to be Martials.
Suggestions
There has been a lot of suggestions about how to make Rogue find its niche.
If we’re making it a real supportive-class, most popular suggestion is making Rogue able to do more things with skills, and let them be able to fulfil extra tasks with skill checks while others can't. Make their check-results better and different from other classes.
Though, the easiest way of doing this might have been making Rogue the “physical Wizard”. Things like you can make effects that works similar to some spells by skill checks.
If we’re making it a real Martial, there’re many ways to do this:
1. Give them extra-attack.
This is the simplest way of making Rogue a Martial. Their DPR would also be acceptable since they don’t have Fighting Styles, Spells, and the access to Heavy Weapons and many Martial Weapons, thus making them unable to pick Feats like Polearm Master, Crossbow Expert, Great Weapon Master that most Martials would pick.
Luckily, Sneak Attack is not easy to trigger and scales really slow. Adding extra-attack only allows Rogue to catch up with others. But the most controversial part of this solution is that many players believe the extra-attack would eliminates the flavor of Rogue, which I totally understand. Though, I’m not against this solution.
2. Make Sneak Attack Scales every level.
This has been the simplest and the most accepted solution. All we need to do is making Sneak Attack once “per round” instead of once “per turn”, as most Rogue players have suggested and wanted.
Players are happy to see Sneak Attack becomes once per round when the damage goes up, like “you can only Sneak Attack once before the start of your next turn”.
They just need their Opportunity Sneak Attack and Ready Sneak Attack to be still available when players didn’t Sneak Attack in their own turn.
3. Sneak Attack remains the same, but make Uncanny Dodge into Uncanny Riposte.
There are many players that suggested since out-of-turn Sneak Attack has been a viable playstyle since 5e2014, then why not we just make it more accessible to all players, instead of only the experienced players and specific classes.
We just need to make Uncanny Dodge able to “attack back (with a melee attack) when you get hit by an attack”. Since the requirements of a Sneak Attack are very easy to break, like attacks from the outside of their range, or face to face when the Rogue is holding a Ranged Weapon, or prone, or many things, the overall DPR would be reasonably fine. Especially it only triggers when Rogue loses its HP. It’s a kind of resource costing either.
4. Add more Sneak Attack Dices by one at certain levels.
Those levels would be like 5, 9, 11, and 17. Though I believe this is far from enough, and not fixing any problems. An extra 3.5 damage is not making Rogue catches up with what extra-attack and 3rd level spells and more spell slots could bring.
My Opinion
I prefer Rogue to be a Martial, cuz it’s been too hard to make Rogue a real competent supportive class without giving them spells or making big changes to the class and the skill system.
So far, I haven’t seen much feasible suggestions in making Rogue a supportive class with simple solutions from the community.
It’s much easier to make it a Martial. But as a Martial, their features just don't justify for its DPR being the lowest currently.
But anyway, I believe firmly that the team would take good care of Rogue. I’m really looking forward to see a better Rogue with a clearer niche.
