D&D (2024) Rogue's Been in an Awkward Place, And This Survey Might Be Our Last Chance to Let WotC Know.

Rogue's been a really awkward position right now. They're having a quite tough time, especially for many players who might pay more attention to balancing and numbers in the game.
I know many players who play Rogue aren't looking for DPR, but their advantage of out-of-combat uitility has been way too low to compensate their bad combat powers, while other classes are getting much boosts in skills, utilities, and combat features. Especially Ranger and Bard, these classes also exist as Experts, same as Rogue, but with powerful combat-powers.

Sneak Attack has scaled too little compared to any other classes that isn't a full-caster after lv.5. Their DPR has been left too far away, even some combat-wise optimized full-casters can catch up with Rogue in DPR, with all that crazy utilities.
Especially after UA8, Cunning Strike is not that special anymore. Barbs, Fighters, Monks, all getting their Skills, Utilities and Mobility boosted. Maybe it's finally a good time for Rogue to get a little boost. But this survey might be our last chance to tell these things to WotC.

Skills
There's been a problem about the role of "Skill-Monkey" since 5e, IMO. The problem lies in skills are meant to be something that "Everyone can do it". In 5e, Skills doesn't allow you to do something beyond "mundane", and there're also no exclusive skills to Rogue like it was in elder editions. Skills alone can't make a class, and it shouldn't be the only thing that make Rogue stands out as an individual class.
Actually, in 5e, Rogue has already been suffering from "skills are for mundane affairs, and Rogues are only better than others in mundane affairs". But in OneD&D, now everyone has become good at those mundane affairs by getting boosted in skills, which turns Rogue into a position of "Only a bit better than others in mundane affairs", and this just make the situation even worse for Rogue. The Skill System needs a rework, or Rogue needs a boost in skills that allowing them to achive something that others can't replicate easily.

Pure Martials
After a series of playtests, Rogues don't shine on skills so much any longer. Despite Bard, Fighter has been able to use Second-Wind to Disengage and move half more of the speed. And they are able to add 5.5(1d10) to every skill checks that has failed, and not costing when it's still a failed check.
In my recent playtest with my friends, the new Fighter with Second-Wind and without any intentionally leaning into skills, had outpaced my Thief Rogue in skill checks before level7, which was a really surprising result to me.
There aren't so many failed skill checks between short-rests at all, let alone it costs nothing if that D10 isn't making you pass. But before level 7, all I've got was a few more +2/3 to skills. Nothing could compared to +D10 to skills that you've failed. The only Rogue I can think of to compete this is Soulknife Rogue.
Barbarian has been able to use Str for five useful skills (Acrobatics, Intimidation, Perception, Stealth, and Survival) while raging for 10-minutes, and both these Features could be recovered by short-rest.

In UA8, Barbarian and Monk has also got their own Strikes. Monks getting better mobility, free BA Dash, free BA Disengage, and Deflect Attack, a better version of Uncanny Dodge, as someone mathed out that a level 5 Monk can reduce 5.5(d10)+4+5=14.5 damage every turn, while Uncanny Dodge is only better when a Rogue takes a 30+ damage from one hit at level 5. For most monsters that players would be facing at level 5, that's been really rare to meet.

About Casters
Beyond that, except Bards, Wizard is also gaining one Expertise in Int skills. Ranger already has Expertise since Tasha, and still getting Expertise in the latest UAs. Cleric an Druid are getting boosted in skills either, and the most important thing has been Guidance. It can be used as a Reaction now, a D4 to every skill with a Reacion.

Don't get me wrong, these are great boosts and adjustents to these Martials and Casters, but they're leaving Rogue in an awkard place. All these classes are dealing a doubled DPR than Rogue in the playtests, or they're simply being the "Full-Casters".
These features that were once the advantage of Rogue, has been too common in 5e2024, which these features can no longer compensate its low combat-power any longer. Bard and Ranger are also Experts, but they don't sacrifice their combat-power to trade for out-of-combat utilities at all. Rogue really could use a boost while others are getting lots.

Rogue Was Meant to Be a Good Damage-Dealer
This might be different from many players' impression of Rogue being the "supportive class", but there's been an interesting fact that people forgets after ten-years of playing with Feats—Sneak Attack was designed under the balacing of pure PHB with No Feats.
In 5e, Feats were optional, and classes, subclasses, including Monsters were all balanced in a way without considering Feats at first, and you can see they care so much about those players who play without Feats in JC's recent interviews.

In that environment, a Level 5 Fighter does a 4d6+8/3d6+12≈22/22.5 DPR total without considering subclasses and hit-chance, while a Rogue would be doing a 1d8+3d6+4/5d6+4≈21.5/19.5 DPR. They were designed very alike in DPR, even higher than a Fighter when they reach Level 9 (28.5/26.5), and that's why they have so many restrictions of landing a proper strike in that environment.
But after years of playing, with more and more players play the game with Feats, and with WotC publishing New Feats, Spells, Subclasses, even Backgrounds, Rogues just can't keep up with the environment changed.

The environment went up, more and more features boost the power of Multi-Attacks, but almost nothing interact with Sneak Attack. Rogue's role was broken at that time.

Conclusion

With everything above, I think the whole environment, after Ten Years of progression, has changed dramastically. But Rogue's core features, such as Skills and Sneak Attacks, can't benefit from these changes like others do at all, thus making Rogue being left behind.
In this new environment of 5e2024, Rogue's power creep shouldn't stay as it was in 5e2014 anymore, they really need boosts at Level 5 to meet the change. I think this might be the last chance for us to tell these things to WotC, and I wish we could grasp this last chance, before it was too late.
 

log in or register to remove this ad


I truly have no idea what you're going on about. Rogue is awesome. Original tested well, and new version tested great. It's done. They're in a really good place.
There're been guys on reddit and other forums calculating every Martial's DPR, and sadly Rogue has been the bottom in OneD&D. Almost every OneD&D Martial does a doubled DPR than the Rogue, while they're getting boosted in skills (which is great) and doing decent out-of-combat utilities, you can check the data here. Rogue's utilities and skills just cannot compensate its low DPR any longer.
 
Last edited:




Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
There're been guys on reddit and other forums calculating every Martial's DPR, and sadly Rogue has been the bottom in OneD&D. Almost every OneD&D Martial does a doubled DPR than the Rogue, while they're getting boosted in skills (which is great) and doing decent out-of-combat utilities, you can check the data here. Rogue's utilities and skills just cannot compensate its low DPR any longer.

The guys on Reddit are wrong. And no I am not going to do the math for you. Treantmonk did though and their damage came in at 74% over baseline.

The rogue tested through the roof. I think it got close to a 90% approval. This is the wrong tree to be barking up.
 

Divine2021

Adventurer
I get that DnD is basically a murder simulation, but perhaps they’re trying to spice things up with the rogue, making them less murderous and more skillful. Just a tongue in cheek thought that perhaps, perhaps has a twang of truth to it?
 

perhaps they’re trying to spice things up with the rogue, making them less murderous and more skillful.
If the Fighter changes go live as they are, then that will be the skillful class. Rogue does okay once they hit lv7 and have expertise+reliable talent, but any true skill person will have 2 levels of Fighter in there.

I think (ranged) Rogue is okay with the Cunning Strikes giving them a support niche, but any kind of a support role should get compared to what the Bard is bringing, and that's a full caster who just locks down whole groups.
 
Last edited:

I get that DnD is basically a murder simulation, but perhaps they’re trying to spice things up with the rogue, making them less murderous and more skillful. Just a tongue in cheek thought that perhaps, perhaps has a twang of truth to it?
That also might work, but Skill System has just been...5e's Skill System has been too DM-depandent, and its ceiling doesn't allow Rogue to be that special as an individual class anymore. A Ranger or a Dex Fighter with the new Second Wind are also be able to do a good job in Rogue-things, like picking locks, stealing, or sneaking and stuffs.

I don't really know how WotC could make Rogue better with current Skill System, if they really think Rogu's combat-power should be the bottom somehow.
 

Remove ads

AD6_gamerati_skyscraper

Remove ads

Upcoming Releases

Top