D&D (2024) Party Balance?

[Ashrym]

So the 2024 PHB has this...

A Balanced Party

The classic D&D party comprises a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. Those four classes have the longest history in the game, but more importantly, they bring a balanced mix of capabilities to adventures. You’re welcome to use that party setup or modify it using these guidelines:

Cleric: Replace with Bard or Druid

Fighter: Replace with Barbarian, Monk, Paladin, or Ranger

Rogue: Replace with Bard or Ranger

Wizard: Replace with Bard, Sorcerer, or Warlock

I think I might have been taking it for granted my (and other players) experience in how to build a character to fill these roles. I'm not sure how much everyone agrees or disagrees with the premise either and the fact this statement doesn't really give new players information on how these classes fit in with their abilities. It looks to me like it's an appeal to tradition, which I don't think is necessarily bad (I like nostalgia too ) but I think it could have been expanded on a bit more if WotC is putting that premise out for players.

I'm also curious what other experienced players might thing of what's needed and where these classes fit into "party balance".

• cleric looks like "healer and support"
• fighter looks like "hit things and takes damage"
• rogue looks like "expertise in skills" -- that one in particular could use more detail
• wizard looks like "casts offensive spells"

I think a class like bard can cover skills instead of a rogue without too many complications, can heal well if selecting the right spells but needs to be cautious due to the armor differences being where they might need to be for healing, and takes a lot of caution trying to select spells to cover for what a wizard can do. The bard is listed for everything but fighter and I think that's misleading because a new player might look at this and think the one class covers more.

Meanwhile, I think a druid can cover for a wizard reasonably well within that spell selection; or a DEX based fighter (who can boost skill checks with tactical mind) using (bonus) feats for things like keen mind, observant, and/or skill expert is capable of expertise in investigation, perception, and/or stealth.

Student of War adds a bonus skill proficiency; and maneuvers such as ambush, commanding presence, and tactical assessment also give options for bonuses to skill checks a rogue can use.

I think I can build a fighter that does well with skill checks. It's just a more complex build on what we're told is a low complexity class. That's also why classifying classes by experts didn't work in the playtest. Skill expertise isn't unique enough and additional skills are easy to get via feat and species and subclass.

I haven't played with monks enough to decide they can replace a fighter and don't get that idea on first impression. The initial impression I get is that they don't fit the category the way they are presented. This is more how I see it if WotC continues with the premise to make it easier for new players...

A Balanced Party

The classic D&D party comprises a Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard. Those four classes have the longest history in the game, but more importantly, they bring a balanced mix of capabilities to adventures. You’re welcome to use that party setup or modify it using these guidelines:

Cleric: Typical replacements are the Druid or Bard. These classes generally supply healing and support for the other party members.

Fighter: Typical replacements are the Paladin or Barbarian. The classes generally do a lot of damage in combat and soak up a lot of attacks, often seen as defense for other classes.

Rogue: Typical replacements are the Ranger or Monk. These classes generally rely more on stealth and/or mobility while using decisive attacks in combat, often seen as scouting classes.

Wizard: Typical replacements are the Sorcerer or Warlock. These classes generally supply powerful offensive magic and magical utility.

Thoughts?

 

[GMMichael]

So the 2024 PHB has this...

Thoughts?

Sure.

• What if my party has only 3 PCs?
• Bard can replace anyone.
• Those are great suggestions, but which of the 82 subclasses do I choose?
• Your suggestions are better, Ashrym, but seem rather combat-focused.
• WotC isn't wasting time reinforcing the One True Way to play D&D. They could have just said, "cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard have the longest history, but play whatever sounds like fun!"

 

[Charlaquin]

It’s a fine way to introduce new players to the idea of trying to diversify character roles within a party. Oversimplified, yes, but… well, it’s supposed to be simple. Here’s a template you can use to help insure a diverse skill set within your party. If you have enough experience to have formed different opinions about what classes work for what roles… you don’t need this kind of template.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Looks like they're trying to bring back 4E style combat roles to me! I see through your disguise of natural language!

 

[ECMO3]

In modern D&D that advice has little mechanical value. While there is some advantage you get from covering bases, that is no longer a function of class specifically. You can play with 4 of a single class and be fine as a group (or even OP if it is 4 Sorcerers or Wizards). Conversely you can balance the group along class lines as they suggest and not have a group that can cover all bases.

The "party healer" is not really required at all since potions of healing (and now scrolls of Cure Wounds) are basic adventuring gear. Most of the Clerics I play are not "healers" anyway. They have Healing Word to throw around and play "whack a mole", but it is really on party members to manage their own hit points. I actually take high-level healing spells more with Bards than with Clerics.

Similarly magic can take care of most of the exploration pillar making your Rogue (or Ranger or Bard) unecessary. Often magic can do it better than a Rogue or Ranger could anyway, then have a couple characters get thieves tools with a background.

The Tank is again done better by a Wizard optimized for it than by a Fighter, Barbarian or Paladin, but can also be accomplished effectively by a Cleric or Bard relatively easily and by a Rogue without much work. That said at low level you do generally need someone who is going to get in the front and get attacked frequently. At high level you can use summons for this role, but until you have enough spells to do that someone is going to have to plan to be attacked, so this is actually required at level 1, but any class can do it.

The offensive controller can be done by any caster, including half casters, with the right choices.

 

[Shadowedeyes]

I think it's fine, although I like the slightly more in depth version. The thing to remember is that it isn't for advanced players, who can probably make any combination work, it's for new players who may only have very vague, or even no, knowledge of what the classes tend to do.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Looks like they're trying to bring back 4E style combat roles to me! I see through your disguise of natural language!

Yeah!

Of course... 4E's "Roles" were just taking the natural language of what was already in the game regarding Clerics, Fighters, Rogues, and Wizards from the first three editions and disguising it with "technical language".

 

[DEFCON 1]

If there are any new players out there that are so new that they've never played any other RPG, board game or video game that pretty much has adapted their own classes, archetypes or jobs from classic D&D (and thus the player already knows these "roles" that the Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, and Wizard have)...

...they are going to learn by playing. So they don't need to be "all up on the lingo" because they're just going to enjoy the game for what it is and they don't need to know what's "best" or what's "right" or what's "necessary". It's not going to matter. They will play... they will have fun... and maybe they might learn something down the line regarding esoterica like having 3 bards in the party might not be as useful as they thought.

 

[payn]

Didnt they break the classes into magic user, martial, skill guy or something during the playtest? Seems like that might be easier then a bunch of text.

 

[Krachek]

Honest advice for newbies, who are the target audience of the Phb 2024.