D&D (2024) Scion of the Three Rogue was Way More Boring than I Expected.

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

So this is a bit late for a feedback report, though I still think it worth posting.

Anyway, my friends and I had this 5~9 quick playtest campaign with the new subclasses recently, and the Scion of the Three looks great overall, but it turned out to be rather boring when comes to real play. Most of time it feels like you haven't picked a Subclass, even worse than the Assassin.

Bloodthirst has two features. The first adds extra damage equal to half of Rogue's level (round up) to Bloodied (half hp left) creatures.

This looks nice but it feels pretty useless in actual combats. It does nothing at the start of the game. Minions often die quickly. It's either my teammates kill a minion in one round or it's half dead and I kill it with one-shot, like, I can't feel that +3 did anything...Then finally when there're Bloodied enemy, okay, +3, and that's all.

And the biggest problem is, I have to keep asking my DM “Which one is Bloodied?” before my attack which can be a bit annoying.

I can get the philosophy of the design that Bloodied enemies make the Rogue go into frenzy, but the mechanism and the number just feels boring and doesn't do anything.

The second feature allows you to take a Reaction to Teleport 30 feet then make a melee attack when a creature you can see dies. This a good and fun feature, but it can only be used in a number of times equal to your Int modifer, and regain all expended uses after a Long Rest.

I mean, this is a good feature, cool, fun, potential Double SA, but Rogues can't main Int and True Strike won't help either since your Reaction Attack isn't based on Int. You only have 2~3 uses per day and that's too less for an adventure day. Players would wanna save their uses in Boss fight of the day, and you'll find yourself playing a Vanilla Rogue before it burns out and after it burned out, which sadly it burns out quickly.

I think there shouldn't be limits to the number of use of it, compared to what Thief and Shadow Monk gets (unlimited Bonus Magic Items/ unlimited Bonus Shadow Step), especially it's hard to be triggered in many occasions, and you can't utilize the Teleportation Attack useful in many cases.

Dread Allegiance gives you an option for one Resistance out of three specific options (Psychic, Poison, Necrotic) and one cantrip out of three (Minor Illusion, Blade Ward, Chill Touch). Not bad but does nothing still, and poor utility.

9th Level feature gives you a new Cunning Strike option that allows you to make your enemy Frightened, not bad, nothing special, and nothing else.

Overall, this subclass is like a “god-worshiping Assassin”, but way more boring than the Assassin. Assassinate is a better tactical feature. Intiative brings more impact to the combat and auto Advantage triggers Vex. Tool Proficiencies also have better out-of-combat utility.

Opinion: I think Teleportation Attack feature of Bloodthirst shouldn't be limited to a certain number of uses per Long Rest. It should be at least a Short Rest feature.

But my real opion is. The number of uses shouldn't be limited at all since it isn't that easy to be triggered and utilize properly. Just make it triggered by a enemy you can see dies in 30 or 15 feet for balancing in that case.

Or, just delete the extra damage and limit the Teleportation Attack to one use, but recharges when you hit a Bloodied enemy with Sneak Attack, similar to Phantom Rogue in a different way. This would bring more fun and tactical utility to it.

 

[Shardstone]

Did you post this to Reddit too?

I concur with your analysis here. There has been a consistent but strange trend in 5E's history to give the most absolutely worthless passive damage amounts to players. Just because it's passive doesn't mean it should be rendered down to useless book keeping IMO. Let's look at the Scion rogue as WotC says most games are played, from levels 3-10. You get a +2 - +5 damage boost to essentially one attack per turn. That's equivalent to adding 1d6-1d10 to your damage, but without the satisfaction of every hitting those upper numbers (6-10). And because damage and HP have relative parity, and most combats are designed to end around 3 rounds in, it feels as if it's just a really pitiful feature. It isn't fun, and it doesn't feel impactful, and even if it is mathematically "strong" it feels like a waste of time to keep up with.

This reminds me of how Crawford said that Flex was one of the strongest Masteries. No one cares about a +1 damage buff, or a +2 damage buff, when you are making one attack a round. It feels pitiful. We can crunch the numbers and realize this is a "22%" increase in damage or w/e, but that doesn't make it feel like its worth the time to use. In a video this wouldn't matter, but in a TTRPG every mechanic takes brain space, and why would I dedicate brain space to something as infinitesimal as +2 damage once per turn?

Assassin suffers from this as well btw. +3 damage once in the first round...yippee. Thanks WotC for giving me such an involved and impactful benefit.

 

[D-03-109 MeltingLove]

Let's look at the Scion rogue as WotC says most games are played, from levels 3-10. You get a +2 - +5 damage boost to essentially one attack per turn. That's equivalent to adding 1d6-1d10 to your damage, but without the satisfaction of every hitting those upper numbers (6-10). And because damage and HP have relative parity, and most combats are designed to end around 3 rounds in, it feels as if it's just a really pitiful feature. It isn't fun, and it doesn't feel impactful, and even if it is mathematically "strong" it feels like a waste of time to keep up with.

It's not how Bloodied work..Actually, just like #1 says, the player who play it need keep tracking the enemies' HPs, and Bloodied is a semi-condition(that wotc not call them condition) of creature that's LOWER than their half-HP.
So the fact this feature is powerful when every Enemy is Bloodied or the only bbeg is Bloodied, and also useless when anything else, It cannot essentially equal to “Oh, half-HP bonus, It's gonna be half bonus”.
In my opinion, this Feature can only get less than +2dmg in a common fight level3-10 player has and it canbe even lower since your party member would also like to kill/defeat lower HP monsters first.

 

[Shardstone]

It's not how Bloodied work..Actually, just like #1 says, the player who play it need keep tracking the enemies' HPs, and Bloodied is a semi-condition(that wotc not call them condition) of creature that's LOWER than their half-HP.
So the fact this feature is powerful when every Enemy is Bloodied or the only bbeg is Bloodied, and also useless when anything else, It cannot essentially equal to “Oh, half-HP bonus, It's gonna be half bonus”.
In my opinion, this Feature can only get less than +2dmg in a common fight level3-10 player has and it canbe even lower since your party member would also like to kill/defeat lower HP monsters first.

Agreed on all this, further proving how bad the feature is.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Put stuff in the survey

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

Put stuff in the survey

Already did.

 

[mellored]

It's ok if there are some simple subclasses.

Not a lot of them, but having a few is good for the game.

 

[ECMO3]

So this is a bit late for a feedback report, though I still think it worth posting.

Anyway, my friends and I had this 5~9 quick playtest campaign with the new subclasses recently, and the Scion of the Three looks great overall, but it turned out to be rather boring when comes to real play. Most of time it feels like you haven't picked a Subclass, even worse than the Assassin.

Bloodthirst has two features. The first adds extra damage equal to half of Rogue's level (round up) to Bloodied (half hp left) creatures.

This looks nice but it feels pretty useless in actual combats. It does nothing at the start of the game. Minions often die quickly. It's either my teammates kill a minion in one round or it's half dead and I kill it with one-shot, like, I can't feel that +3 did anything...Then finally when there're Bloodied enemy, okay, +3, and that's all.

And the biggest problem is, I have to keep asking my DM “Which one is Bloodied?” before my attack which can be a bit annoying.

I can get the philosophy of the design that Bloodied enemies make the Rogue go into frenzy, but the mechanism and the number just feels boring and doesn't do anything.

The second feature allows you to take a Reaction to Teleport 30 feet then make a melee attack when a creature you can see dies. This a good and fun feature, but it can only be used in a number of times equal to your Int modifer, and regain all expended uses after a Long Rest.

I mean, this is a good feature, cool, fun, potential Double SA, but Rogues can't main Int and True Strike won't help either since your Reaction Attack isn't based on Int. You only have 2~3 uses per day and that's too less for an adventure day. Players would wanna save their uses in Boss fight of the day, and you'll find yourself playing a Vanilla Rogue before it burns out and after it burned out, which sadly it burns out quickly.

I think there shouldn't be limits to the number of use of it, compared to what Thief and Shadow Monk gets (unlimited Bonus Magic Items/ unlimited Bonus Shadow Step), especially it's hard to be triggered in many occasions, and you can't utilize the Teleportation Attack useful in many cases.

Dread Allegiance gives you an option for one Resistance out of three specific options (Psychic, Poison, Necrotic) and one cantrip out of three (Minor Illusion, Blade Ward, Chill Touch). Not bad but does nothing still, and poor utility.

9th Level feature gives you a new Cunning Strike option that allows you to make your enemy Frightened, not bad, nothing special, and nothing else.

Overall, this subclass is like a “god-worshiping Assassin”, but way more boring than the Assassin. Assassinate is a better tactical feature. Intiative brings more impact to the combat and auto Advantage triggers Vex. Tool Proficiencies also have better out-of-combat utility.

Opinion: I think Teleportation Attack feature of Bloodthirst shouldn't be limited to a certain number of uses per Long Rest. It should be at least a Short Rest feature.

But my real opion is. The number of uses shouldn't be limited at all since it isn't that easy to be triggered and utilize properly. Just make it triggered by a enemy you can see dies in 30 or 15 feet for balancing in that case.

Or, just delete the extra damage and limit the Teleportation Attack to one use, but recharges when you hit a Bloodied enemy with Sneak Attack, similar to Phantom Rogue in a different way. This would bring more fun and tactical utility to it.

So you mention minions. Do you mean actual MCDM minions? Because if so that changes things.

I love the subclass, but you really need to play intelligence first with it if you really want to make it work. If you were playing level 5-9 with a 14 intelligence I get why it was disappointing. If you were playing level 5-9 with an 18-20 intelligence and truestrike I don't get why it was so bad.

You are right about attacks of opportunity, but a 16 Dex is fine for those at 9th level assuming you get sneak attack .... and that is before you consider the reactions you are using for uncanny dodge or bloodthirst.

Frightened is EXTREMELY powerful on a Rogue. The downside to this is the dead three ability uses dex on a character that is going to want to push intelligence, but frightening an enemy with an attack, while also being able to disengage as a bonus action is huge in play because of the movement restrictions associated with frightened.

 

[Soulknife_Infiltrator]

So you mention minions. Do you mean actual MCDM minions? Because if so that changes things.

I love the subclass, but you really need to play intelligence first with it if you really want to make it work. If you were playing level 5-9 with a 14 intelligence I get why it was disappointing. If you were playing level 5-9 with an 18-20 intelligence and truestrike I don't get why it was so bad.

You are right about attacks of opportunity, but a 16 Dex is fine for those at 9th level assuming you get sneak attack .... and that is before you consider the reactions you are using for uncanny dodge or bloodthirst.

Frightened is EXTREMELY powerful on a Rogue. The downside to this is the dead three ability uses dex on a character that is going to want to push intelligence, but frightening an enemy with an attack, while also being able to disengage as a bonus action is huge in play because of the movement restrictions associated with frightened.

Oh, it's just our table tends to call those low-hp easily-killed monsters "Minions"