D&D General Arcane Subclasses UA Survey is up

[Neonchameleon]

Don't take my comment as a slam on 4e. But ADEU were designed to be used in combat. Some Utility powers were useful outside of combat, but the goal was that every round of combat was a chance to use your abilities. That was something 5e initially moved away from, and is now embracing again. Which is why so many features again focus on damage, healing and temp HP, battlefield movement, etc.

I didn't say 4e wasn't good at combat. But if we want a combat exclusive thing we have prior to 4e the entire Fighter or Fighting Man class.

For that matter if we look at the 3.5 rogue we find that other some skills (and the 4e one was more skilled; I've run a 4e human fighter out of the PHB that were more skilled than 3.5 rogues due to 4e having condensed the skills*) the only abilities the 3.X rogue has that aren't intended for combat are Trapfinding (which is really forced incompetence for non-rogues) and, at level 10, Skill Mastery. Even Trapsense is about combat.

When all the abilities other than skills of the 3.5 rogue were about combat then I think we can say quite conclusively that prior to 4e non-combat utility was about spellcasting and pretty much only about spellcasting. Meanwhile if we look at the level 2 Rogue utility powers in the PHB we find:

• Stealth at full speed with no penalty
• Standing jump counts as a running jump with no penalty
• Reroll bluff check 1/encounter
• Make a thievery check as a minor action 1/encounter (in other words make a brush pass, walking past someone and picking their pocket without breaking step)
• Combat tumble

Is that the best collection of abilities? No. But what do you expect at level 2? Only one of them is exclusively a combat ability and this level 2 collection is more than the Level 9 rogue gets in total.

4e was, for the first time since 1e, a game that actually functioned out of combat and where the muggles had things they were good at rather than just having to sit down and leave things up to the casters. People who criticise even launch 4e's out of combat experience were doing so because they had learned that the only place to look for non-combat utility was in the spells.

Did 4e improve the combat experience by more than the non-combat experience? Yes. But it still significantly improved the out of combat experience over "fetch a caster to cast the right spell" and fighters with 2+Int modifier skill points per level out of more than thirty skills plus the profession, craft, knowledge, and perform families of skills.

* Climb, Jump, and Swim became Athletics. Sleight of Hand, Open Locks, and Disable Device became Thievery. Hide and Move Silently became Stealth. Balance and the non-combat uses of Tumble became Acrobatics. Spot and Listen became Perception. I was playing a second story man. Fully proficient in the equivalent of 12 3.5 skills of which 11 were directly relevant (Swim being the exception).

 

[Jensaarai]

He's referring to the Summoner class. Pathfinder has a Summoner class.

Summoner – d20PFSRD

www.d20pfsrd.com

the third one mentioned was "Necromancer," and I was suggesting Spiritualist as an alternative that doesn't trip across Necromancy also being a school of magic in d&d