D&D 5E (2024) The Undead Army Necromancer is not Designable

[ECMO3]

You really only need to be a 7th level Necromancer if you're willing to work more than a day on it, 8th if you can wait a short rest, or 9th if you're really impatient.

You can't work more than a day on it because you have to recast animate dead.

2. Animate your dead. If you're a Necromancer Wizard, your Animate Dead targets one additional corpse or pile of bones. That's 2 for a 3rd level slot, 4 for a 4th level slot, 6 for a 5th level slot, etc.

You have the numbers wrong. When you use Undead Thralls "you can target one additional corpse or pile of bones". This is NOT double the number of bones or one additional corpse for every level above 2nd. So RAW it is actually this:

3rd level slot: 2 Skeletons, 1+1 extra for being a necromancer
4th level slot: 3 skeletons, 2 + 1 extra for being a necromancer
5th level slot: 4 skeletons, 3 + 1 extra for being a necromancer
6th level slot: 5 skeletons, 4 + 1 extra for being a necromancer
7th level slot: 6 skeletons, 5 + 1 extra for being a necromancer
8th level slot 7 Skeletons, 6 + 1 extra for being a necromancer
9th level slot 8 Skeletons, 7+ 1 extra for being a necromancer

An easy way to remember is take the spell slot level and subtract 1.

3. Maintain control of your minions. Keeping control of already animated minions is less spell intensive than animating them.

Also you are assuming Skeletons do not get killed and need to be reanimated, because when they do (and with 20hps or so and vulnerability to bludgeoning weapons they most assuredly will at high leveel) you are back to using more slots to keep an Army around.

Even with immortal Skeletons that go up against CR15 enemies and don't die, it is still a heavy tax to pay and makes this character weaker than most other full casters if they have a horde of 18 or so skeletons.

 

[mellored]

Where? Please provide the quote and highlight the word "balance" in it.

You nerf fighters because you find it to be disruptive. But you don't want to modify necromancer even if others find it to be disruptive.

That's a double standard.

 

[ECMO3]

How do you do that when the other party members are slapping your character round the head for being a selfish tit?

IME other party members are high fiving the player who is running a bunch of minions.

 

[ECMO3]

You nerf fighters because you find it to be disruptive. But you don't want to modify necromancer even if others find it to be disruptive.

That's a double standard.

I said in that screenshot that it is NOT important!

I changed indomitable at tables I DM because in high level play it is difficult to design encounters when a PC has this ability, not because it is "disruptive". That is what I said and that is even what you quoted, yet you interpreted something else, like it had to do with balance or being disruptive?

I don't find Indomitable disruptive at all.

As far as Necromancers, I haven't found the Animate Dead spell* to be disruptive, or powerful, or have any significant effect on designing high level encounters. I think because it is weak, I have never actually had a PC (fellow player or as a DM) try or even say they wanted an undead horde of Skeletons on the scale we are talking about here. If they did, I think it would be pathetically weak and would not require any sort of encounter design changes. If I was wrong and I and I played with it and found it to make encounter design difficult maybe I would change it as I did with Indomitable (and Mage Slayer), but I don't think that is going to happen.

I don't see what either of those things have to do with balance or what double standard you are talking about.

* I want to point out that people keep saying "Necromancer" but what they are really talking about is the Animate Dead spell as any Cleric, Wizard or high level Bard can use the spell in the fashion people are describing. So we talk about "fixing" the Necromancer, but unless you change the spell you are not really changing the mechanics.

 

[mellored]

Ok are you talking about Balance or something else. The screenshot you posted had you saying "balance" not me.

The only "it" in the previous short sentence was "balance"

I changed indomitable at tables I DM because in high level play it is difficult to design encounters when a PC has this ability, not because it is "disruptive".

Semantics.

You modified a class because it was less fun for you.
But you don't want to modify a class when it's less fun for others.


Also, I really don't see how indomitable makes it hard to design encounters. Seems far easier than designing around 16 skeletons.
Fighter can absorb 3 saves, 16 skeletons can absorb 16 of them.

 

[ECMO3]

The only "it" in the previous short sentence was "balance"

Semantics.

You modified a class because it was less fun for you

But you don't want to modify a class when it's less fun for others.

No I didn't. Please stop saying this. I changed it because I found encounter design difficult in high level play

Also, I really don't see how indomitable makes it hard to design encounters.

Because at high levels it makes PCs effectively immune to failing saving throws. This makes it extremely difficult to design encounters to meet the encounter design goals at the three levels as described in the DMG.

It has nothing to do with being fun or with balance and I made this change at the tables I DM after seeing it in play at very high levels.

Seems far easier than designing around 16 skeletons.

No it is not. In high level play 16 skeletons are not going to survive a medium difficulty encounter. Some of them will be killed in a low difficulty encounter and it is a lot of resources to create them.

Fighter can absorb 3 saves, 16 skeletons can absorb 16 of them.

No they can't. Most of those skeletons are not even going to get a turn in a high difficulty encounter at 20th level, half of them won't get a turn in most low difficulty encounters at that level.

 

[Umbran]

Mod Note:

Folks,

Several of you seem to be getting... snippy and irritable. You may want to take a break or a breather or something, because this post serves as a warning for everyone - be respectful and kind.

That's all. Just dial it back, folks.

 

[Remathilis]

How do you do that when the other party members are slapping your character round the head for being a selfish tit?

To be perfectly clear, if the necromancer's turn started taking longer than the rest of the group put together, I'm going cleric and turning those skeletons to dust. I get more Channel Divinities than necromancers get high level spell slots....

 

[Paul Farquhar]

To be perfectly clear, if the necromancer's turn started taking longer than the rest of the group put together, I'm going cleric and turning those skeletons to dust. I get more Channel Divinities than necromancers get high level spell slots....

Well, it’s not like good aligned clerics and paladins don’t have a strong motivation to dust any undead!