Roles, Power Sources, & PHB1 Classes

[Chris_Nightwing]

Fighters get a lot of feats in 3.X, sure, but who knows what they have in 4e. I think they'll be primarily defenders, as discussed by WotC themselves.

Really, I think you can set up a class to fill almost any role. Wizards can probably be good strikers. Fighters can probably be good controllers. It's just that there are roles that they're *really* very good at. It wouldn't surprise me to see a little bit of leadership in each class either, I mean, Wizards buff quite well right? Rangers can possibly reveal weaknesses in a particular enemy to the whole party.

I think trying to fill the power source/role grid is quite pretty, perhaps even a neat way to complete the ruleset, but really, not necessary, and perhaps even limiting for the design. I've only done a little formal design training, but I do remember that you should never obssess over some pre-conceived notion of what you're making and concentrate instead on making something fit for use.

 

[Oldtimer]

except i hear that phb1 will only have 8 classes,

Source? All I've seen is "at least 8, no more than 11".

 

[Mercule]

WOTC has already tagged the Ranger as a Striker, so that leads me to believe they are reworking him for that purpose. Seems to be focussed more on archery now, which I don't really care for.

True. That should actually give me some hope, I guess, because a lot of people have said the barbarian is more striker than anything else, too. I'd like to see the ranger kill the barbarian and take his stuff, but that's a broken record.

I'll just be extremely disappointed if the ranger ends up with a divine power source. The spellcasting is a sideline for the ranger. Throwing them under "divine" makes about as much sense as making rogues arcane because of their UMD.

As far as a martial controller, I think the ranger could work in that role in a number of ways. Archery tricks would let him render foes shaken (or something), give him the a talent tree for quick obstacles (tie a rope to yonder tree and pull at the right moment, caltrops, etc.), and turn skirmish into a way to quickly intercept a foe ("if your opponent is within range of your movement, you may move to threaten as a swift/immediate action, ignoring AoO and terrain"). I'm not really explaining it very well, but that's a rough idea of the sorts of things I was thinking.

Fits better than a fighter, at least.

 

[Ashrem Bayle]

I've only done a little formal design training, but I do remember that you should never obssess over some pre-conceived notion of what you're making and concentrate instead on making something fit for use.

I kinda have to disagree there. As a professionals designer, my approach is to establish a good idea of what I want to build then set out to build it, not calling it complete until either the end result meets my original expectations, exceeds my original expectations, or requires a revised plan due to flawed original expectations.

You can't just call it quits when you can churn out something that's "good enough". The end result needs to be polished.

 

[Dragonblade]

So why not put a class of each role and source in the PHB? For example:

Martial:
Defender: Barbarian
Leader: Warlord
Controller: Fighter
Striker: Rogue

Divine:
Defender: Paladin
Leader: Cleric
Controller: Druid
Striker: Ranger

Arcane:
Defender: Swordmage
Leader: Bard
Controller: Wizard
Striker: Warlock

To me, this seems like a very elegant solution that lines up with the PHB1's function as the foundation of the game. It offers something for everyone right out of the gate.

I agree. They should put 12 classes in the PHB1. For the sake of elegance and symmetry, they should partner each role with a power source to come up with a list of classes. My list would look like this:

Arcane Controller: Wizard
Arcane Defender: Warlock
Arcane Leader: Sorcerer
Arcane Striker: Swordmage

Divine Controller: Druid
Divine Defender: Paladin
Divine Leader: Cleric
Divine Striker: Ranger

Martial Controller: Archer
Martial Defender: Fighter
Martial Leader: Warlord
Martial Striker: Rogue

 

[Arkhandus]

So apparently classes are being designed to fit into one of the following roles: Defender, Leader, Controller, & Striker

And apparently the PHB1 will deal with three "power sources" for characters; the arcane, divine, and martial.

So why not put a class of each role and source in the PHB? For example:

Martial:
Defender: Barbarian
Leader: Warlord
Controller: Fighter
Striker: Rogue

Divine:
Defender: Paladin
Leader: Cleric
Controller: Druid
Striker: Ranger

Arcane:
Defender: Swordmage
Leader: Bard
Controller: Wizard
Striker: Warlock

Remember, the Fighter is deemed a 'defender' in role though, by the designers. And AFAIK we don't know for sure that there are only going to be 8 classes, so 12 is a possibility.

More likely the arrangement for martial characters would be:
Defender: Fighter
Leader: Warlord
Controller: Monk, Knight, or renamed Warblade perhaps
Striker: Rogue

 

[Thaumaturge]

What would a Martial Controller even look like?

The 3e PHBII Knight? Their threated area is difficult terrain for opponents and they can force certain opponents to fight them. That seems like a decent start for a martial controller.

Thaumaturge.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The 3e PHBII Knight? Their threated area is difficult terrain for opponents and they can force certain opponents to fight them. That seems like a decent start for a martial controller.

No. Artificial stupidity shiz would be the WORST idea for a martial controller, absolutely the worst. No absolute mind-control through non-magical threats, please.

A martial controller could easily be someone who is capable of moving enemies and himself around, and using tricky, dirty fighting moves (he could be a martial artist, or just a dirty, tricky fighter).

Examples:

Stunning melee attacks (including shield bashes, head clonks etc.)
Shield-rushes/Bull-rushes (better than the normal kind, i.e. more powerful/reliable.)
Exceptional tripping ability, trapping people on the ground.
Throwing rocks or weapons to interrupt spellcasting
Ranged AoOs due to exceptional combat awareness (even when not using a ranged weapon - again, throws rocks, daggers, etc.)
Throws/flips/moves enemies.
Chucks dirt/dust/powder in enemies eyes/faces.
Tricks enemies into overreaching (in a non-mind-control way).
Disarms, sunders, etc. better than normal melees.

Basically, you could just focus on all the utility/movement-control options available to melees, and upgrade them. Call him the Thug, or Mercenary, or Veteran, or whatever, cooler name you can come up with.

Just don't for god's bloody sake, give me a bloody freakin' MMORPG tank, with weak melee ability, and magickalelelelellee taunts that don't have a magical power source yet someone CONTROL MENS MINDS <makes hypnotoad noises>

Mind-control should be the province of magic and psionics, not martial.

 

[breschau]

The confirmed classes are, and no, these are not necessarily in PH1:

Martial:
Defender-Fighter. Roles video.
Leader-Warlord. Roles video.
Striker-Rogue. Roles video.
Controller-?

Arcane:
Defender-Swordmage. WotC blog.
Leader-Bard. PC Roles article.
Striker-? Possibly Warlock or Sorcerer.
Controller-Wizard. Roles video. Possibly Warlock or Sorcerer. WotC blog.

Divine:
Defender-Paladin. Roles video.
Leader-Cleric. And possibly the Druid. Roles video.
Striker-? Possibly the Ranger. Roles video.
Controller-?

Note: they have said we shouldn't expect to see every combo filled. The matrix is just a place to start.

The roles video gave us a lot of info. The Ranger is a striker, the Druid is a Leader, but we don't know what their source will be, whether Divine or Nature. As PH1 is slated as "Arcane, Divine, and Martial," we can assume that if Nature as a power source, it and the associated classes will not appear in PH1.

Swordmage is confirmed as not being in PH1.

The confirmed classes in PH1 are: fighter, cleric, rogue, and wizard. After today's blog about Warlocks, that puts it up to five.

All the classes have been talked about all over the place. Please, if you're going to claim a class is confirmed as being in PH1, provide links and/or sources.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

The "8 classes" source was Logan Bonner.

I have seen higher-ranking people say the number isn't set yet since that announcement.