Roles, Power Sources, & PHB1 Classes

[Khaalis]

My guess is that we will see the following (if not all in the PHB1):

Arcane Controller: Wizard * (Arc/Ctr)
Arcane Defender: Swordmage * (Arc/Def)
Arcane Leader: Sorcerer (since already CHA based – maybe incorporating more party “aid” abilities; some think Bard but we haven’t heard a single peep about the bard in 4E)
Arcane Striker: Warlock

Divine Controller: Druid * (Div)
Divine Defender: Paladin *(Def)
Divine Leader: Cleric * (Div/Ldr)
Divine Striker: Ranger * (Stk)

Martial Controller: Barbarian (its been mentioned but no details)
Martial Defender: Fighter * (Mar/Def)
Martial Leader: Warlord * (Ldr)
Martial Striker: Rogue * (Mar/Stk)

* = Confirmed (which part)

That makes up 11 (from the quoted 8 to 11) of the 12 “grid” classes, and we’ve already been told not to expect the Swordmage in the PHB1.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Have you got a link to go with that? I looked through all of Logan's posts on the WotC forum, but couldn't find it.

No, I'm a cheap bastard, and don;t have search.

It was on EnWorld.

 

[Gloombunny]

Arcane Leader: Sorcerer (since already CHA based – maybe incorporating more party “aid” abilities; some think Bard but we haven’t heard a single peep about the bard in 4E)

Dude, there was a whole article about bards in 4e.

Martial Controller: Barbarian (its been mentioned but no details)

Why a controller? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

 

[Khaalis]

Dude, there was a whole article about bards in 4e.

Want to post a link to that? I don't remember reading any such thing, and on checking again, as per the EN 4E page these are the only mentions of the bard:

* "Some current base classes disappear; classes yet to be mentioned and therefore good candidates are Monk [update - now mentioned, above] and Bard."

* "Roles such as the "leader", into which the warlord and cleric fall [and, presumably, bard, if that class makes it in], won't require the character to stand around doing nothing but making other people better (through songs, or healing), but rather will gain access to those abilities in addition to actions he or she might want to take."

* "Finding that viable middle ground isn't a problem unique to 4e. The 3e designers (myself included) took lots of shots at it; the bard, the mystic theurge, and the eldritch knight are all somewhere on the optimal-viable-weaksauce continuum."

* "Domna, a warlord, uses some kind of bard-like ability to boost her allies in addition to attacking a wolf."

Why a controller? That doesn't make the least bit of sense.

Why not? Assuming all of the classes are getting revamped for the new system, with new abilities, Barbarian can make sense to be a controller. We already know the classes are getting Bo9S:ToM type abilities and many of these are 'control' type abilities. The classic barbarian already gets Fast Movement, by definition a form of battlefield control in that they can more easily maneuver the field and be where they are needed. Do away with things like Trap Sense and give them a few more - dare I say it.... tank/agro control ...type abilities and they make a great controller.

Why couldn't the Barbarian have say the "Barbarian's Challenge" that works as a taunt, controlling who the enemy attacks? Or something like "Wild Swing" making the Barbarian impassable within a certain range? Or "Intimidating Glare" that imposes a morale penalty to the enemy? What about a "Pushing Stance" or "Mighty Throw" that allows the barbarian to push/throw the enemy around the battle field? These are all control forms and all make perfect sense for the style of combat we know for the barbarian of old. Barbarians aren't meant to hold ground and "Me Smash!" I could see the argument that a barbarian could be a controller just as much as I can see them being modeled to be a striker. It all depends on how you focus on the abilities they gain.

JMHO.

 

[breschau]

Want to post a link to that? I don't remember reading any such thing, and on checking again, as per the EN 4E page these are the only mentions of the bard:

This article talks extensively about Bards in 4th Edition.

When Andy (Collins), James (Wyatt), and I put together the basic structure of 4th Edition, we started with the conviction that we would make sure every character class filled a crucial role in the player character group. When the bard enters the 4th Edition stage, she’ll have class features and powers that help her fill what we call the Leader role. As a character whose songs help allies fight better and recover hit points, the bard is most likely to fit into a player character group that doesn’t have a cleric, the quintessential divine leader.

Unlike their 3e counterparts, every Leader class in the new edition is designed to provide their ally-benefits and healing powers without having to use so many of their own actions in the group-caretaker mode. A cleric who wants to spend all their actions selflessly will eventually be able to accomplish that, but a cleric who wants to mix it up in melee or fight from the back rank with holy words and holy symbol attacks won’t constantly be forced to put aside their damage-dealing intentions. A certain amount of healing flows from the Leader classes even when they opt to focus on slaying their enemies directly.

This makes it clear that the Bard is an arcane leader, but he will not likely be in PH1.

 

[The_Gneech]

Y'know, this whole "you are your role" thing really grates at me, and at the risk of trotting out a cliché, reminds me of one of the worst aspects of MMOs.

To use an example, I picked up Lord of the Rings Online and made an elven Champion, whose "role" as I understand it, is DPS. His job is to do damage in melee.

As such, the character, though a martial character and a trained soldier, could not learn to use a bow until he was 20th level, because bows belong to the "nuker" class.

This made my head spin. An elven warrior who didn't know how to use a bow? WTF?

Only in this "you are your role" context could it possibly make sense -- doing damage at range is the "damage at range guy's job" and not the "melee damage guy's job". Setting-wise, story-wise, and character-wise, it was crazy nutso.

Now I know that D&D has always had some of this, and I certainly think that "fighter / magician / skill-user" broad categories are both useful for players and GMs. But I don't think they should trump other design considerations, and especially not those of setting, story, and character. I would hope the 4E team won't be so fatuous as to make the Fighter unable to use bows because he is a "defender" and not a "striker" or whatever -- but I would have hoped they wouldn't be so fatuous as to kill Dragon and Dungeon too, thus I have no real faith in them on that score.

-The Gneech

 

[gothmaugCC]

Why aren't we going to see more than 8 classes in the PHB? Well thats simple, If all the key classes were in there, why would anyone buy the PHB 2 the following year ?

I'm sure barbarians, druids, bards, monks and the like are going to need serious overhauls for the new system, and that requires time. So if they are moved to PHB 2 it gives WoTC the time to see how the 4th edition ruleset is working, and more time to tweak classes with non-standard abilities.

 

[Khaalis]

This article talks extensively about Bards in 4th Edition.
This makes it clear that the Bard is an arcane leader, but he will not likely be in PH1.

I wouldn't call two sentences extensive, and yes ALL it tells us is that Bard would be a leader, if/when it enters play, which so far it has NOT been mentioned at all for the PHB1. Additionally, if you look closely, I would NOT say it automatically falls into the ARCANE power source.

As a character whose songs help allies fight better and recover hit points, the bard is most likely to fit into a player character group that doesn’t have a cleric, the quintessential divine leader.

Their songs "help allies fight and RECOVER HP". The bard will fit into a group that doesn't have a CLERIC. Now does this mean All LEADERS can heal? Or that the Bard is on the drawing table as a divine source?

 

[TwoSix]

Their songs "help allies fight and RECOVER HP". The bard will fit into a group that doesn't have a CLERIC. Now does this mean All LEADERS can heal? Or that the Bard is on the drawing table as a divine source?

Well....

A certain amount of healing flows from the Leader classes even when they opt to focus on slaying their enemies directly.

 

[breschau]

I wouldn't call two sentences extensive, and yes ALL it tells us is that Bard would be a leader, if/when it enters play, which so far it has NOT been mentioned at all for the PHB1. Additionally, if you look closely, I would NOT say it automatically falls into the ARCANE power source.

You're right about the PH1. And if you notice, I said the same in my post.

Their songs "help allies fight and RECOVER HP". The bard will fit into a group that doesn't have a CLERIC. Now does this mean All LEADERS can heal? Or that the Bard is on the drawing table as a divine source?

Er... read the second paragraph I quoted above. It's kinda right there.