Rope Trick: any advances?

[mvincent]

1/ Nondetection fails against see invisibility (not a Detect spell, nor a remote viewing spell).

That is subject to interpretation (and lots of debates... I can provide links to them if you desire), so both interpretations have merit. However, WotC customer service has said (here) that nondetection protects you from see invisible. That's enough of a tie breaker for me (even though I previously interpreted it as you do).

2/ Rope trick is not a creature or object, and thus you can't cast nondetection on it anyway.

I would consider the opening for a rope trick to be an object. Something need not be solid to be considered an object. If it is not an object, then there is probably nothing to see. Besides, it's been previously determine that spells are objects for the purpose of targeting (otherwise spells could not be targeted by dispel magic, as the target line for that spell is "One spellcaster, creature, or object").

 

[Nifft]

That is subject to interpretation (and lots of debates... I can provide links to them if you desire), so both interpretations have merit.

It is indeed, and both do. Thus, IMHO. (I've been in enough of those debates, no links needed.)

I would consider the opening for a rope trick to be an object. Something need not be solid to be considered an object. If it is not an object, then there is probably nothing to see. Besides, it's been previously determine that spells are objects for the purpose of targeting (otherwise spells could not be targeted by dispel magic, as the target line for that spell is "One spellcaster, creature, or object").

Where was it decided that spells are objects? Some spell effects are objects (or creatures), for sure, but every spell effect?

Dispelling summon monster spells is obvious: you target the creature. The spell even has a special line covering the case.

And of course you can dispel any ongoing effect that you can locate (within a 20 ft. radius), even if you can't target it directly. So dispel magic isn't particularly problematic under the targeting constraints that I see in the RAW.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Maldor]

Thanks all

The specifics of the situation is that the area is protected with Forbiddance from planar travel, including teleportation, which eliminates some options.

cast dispel magic on the forbiddance then teleport

 

[LordMelquiades]

Wow, the discussion on the Wizards' boards about nondetection vs see invisibility was horrible, but thanks for the link--a good reason to go with gut I think (which for me is nondetection doesn't help against see invis).

The adventure has a rule zero that says that the Forbiddance can't be dispelled (well, it has a justification, but that's just to pretty-up the rule zero), and it fits well with the feel of the thing.

In this situation I think rope trick is it (barring that spell in the Spell Comp)--interesting that there's not more variation on this.

Thanks all.

 

[Patlin]

Does the Forbiddance prevent the rope trick?

 

[LordMelquiades]

Does the Forbiddance prevent the rope trick?

I don't think so:

Forbiddance seals an area against all planar travel into or within it. This includes all teleportation spells (such as dimension door and teleport), plane shifting, astral travel, ethereal travel, and all summoning spells.

The upper end of a rope trick spell is:

fastened to an extradimensional space that is outside the multiverse of extradimensional spaces (“planes”).

My interpretation is that this extra-dimensional space is somewhat outside the 'rules' of normal planar travel, and is therefore okay. It also seems to me that one doesn't get magically transported anywhere using a rope trick, as one is with the transportation and summoning spells--rather, the extra-dimensional space is created out of nothing--it doesn't exactly exist the way the planes do.

Jhulae--that spell is Hidden lodge I think. Nifty spell, but it seems to be for use in the outdoors:

The house created by hidden lodge is perfectly camouflaged to blend in with whatever terrain or surroundings are appropriate. It might appear as a house-sized boulder in a rocky or mountainous area, as a sand dune in the desert, as a densely tangled thicket, a grassy knoll, or even a mighty tree... At any distance of more than 30 feet, the lodge is indistinguishable from natural terrain... DC 30 Survival check to spot the hidden lodge as an artificial dwelling and not a natural part of the landscape.

Thanks

 

[mvincent]

Does the Forbiddance prevent the rope trick?

That is a reasonable interpretation, especially since the 3.5 FAQ says:
"Can I teleport into or out of an extradimensional space,
such as that created by Mordenkainen’s magnificent
mansion or a portable hole?
No. Such spaces are considered to be on another plane, and
thus can’t be reached by teleport since that spell specifically
states that interplanar travel isn’t possible.
An effect that allowed interplanar travel would allow you
to travel from an extradimensional space to another plane (such
as from within a magnificent mansion to the Material Plane)."


However, that could cause serious problems for anyone with a bag of holding, handy haversack, etc.

I recommend treating such areas effectively another plane for all purposes except Forbiddance.

 

[Bagpuss]

Thanks all

The specifics of the situation is that the area is protected with Forbiddance from planar travel, including teleportation, which eliminates some options.

Including Rope Trick, as the entrance effectively transports you to another plane.

 

[Bagpuss]

However, that could cause serious problems for anyone with a bag of holding, handy haversack, etc.

Well you just would not be able to access the contents while in the area of effect.

 

[mvincent]

Well you just would not be able to access the contents while in the area of effect.

At levels where forbiddance is common, most adventurers keep all there gear in such containers. Since forbiddance is permanent, useful* and covers a significant area, some PC's (and their opponents) can spend large amounts of time in them. It can be a huge pain for the DM and players to remember what they have access to during these times (trust me on this... I've tried... it just wasn't worth it).

Just put an (appropriately leveled) archer in such an environment and you'll see what I mean... suddenly having no access to his efficient quiver can really cause him grief.

* It's one of the few deterants to the "scry and fry" tactic.