RSDancey replies to Goodman article (Forked Thread: Goodman rebuttal)

[Aus_Snow]

A more complex game does not mean more options necessarily. It may mean more things to calculate and organize. As it sands 3e D&D and 4e suffer too much from this IMO. There is too much crunch that offers nothing of what you are saying in the end. Too much crunch just for the sake of it.

Could you possibly name (even some of) the game features of each system that are 'guilty of this', so to speak?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

This is what I do not understand. Chess for example has relatively simple rules but the tactical and strategical possibilities are immense.

Would you consider Chess a "casual" game?

It needs the right amount of complexities. Chess weakness is not the amount of rules you need to know, it is that it requires thinking several moves ahead, luring your enemy in a trap while avoiding his. That requires a lot of continual mental effort, and you have little tools to help you think through it.

I like to distinguish between "complex" and "complicated".

In this context. Complicated is if you have to run through a lot of steps to achieve your goals. Complex is if you have a lot of possible things to do.

For example: There are tons of feats in D&D 3E and 4E. But that doesn't make the game complicated, just complex. Complicated is a feat that does give you a +2 bonus instead of a +1 bonus to attacks when you charge an enemy you have marked that has hit you on his last turn. The bonus increases to +4 if the enemy hasn't moved since his last turn. (This feat doesn't exist, as far as I know. ) Try to figure out when you can use this feat and what benefit you get!

Could you possibly name (even some of) the game features of each system that are 'guilty of this', so to speak?

Yes. I usually see more features that are "clumsily" implemented, but not really crunch just to have crunch. And demanding to avoid this is like demanding a bug-free software. A noble goal, but practically impossible.

 

[xechnao]

Would you consider Chess a "casual" game?

It needs the right amount of complexities. Chess weakness is not the amount of rules you need to know, it is that it requires thinking several moves ahead, luring your enemy in a trap while avoiding his. That requires a lot of continual mental effort, and you have little tools to help you think through it.

I like to distinguish between "complex" and "complicated".

In this context. Complicated is if you have to run through a lot of steps to achieve your goals. Complex is if you have a lot of possible things to do.

For example: There are tons of feats in D&D 3E and 4E. But that doesn't make the game complicated, just complex. Complicated is a feat that does give you a +2 bonus instead of a +1 bonus to attacks when you charge an enemy you have marked that has hit you on his last turn. The bonus increases to +4 if the enemy hasn't moved since his last turn. (This feat doesn't exist, as far as I know. ) Try to figure out when you can use this feat and what benefit you get!

I see. For me, for an rpg that is played among a group the interesting qualities of complex and complicated come to be the same.
This stands for the options the whole group or team may be finding itself due to the options of individual players. They have to be so many as to be unpredictable, more or less like chess, so that group dynamics are continuous and players will eventually be developing within the group a playing personality or style due to the dynamic social dynamics within the playing group that are in work. Something like 4e's tactics in combat for example.
But to achieve this you do not need loads of crunch. You need the right interface or formula. For example in complex theory the application of a very simple rule may be generating a pattern just as complex as any patchwork you could be trying to create to make things as complex as you can.

The more patchwork you want or have to do the more prone you are to be creating artificialities or bugs as you call them. If you are a hardcore fan these may not matter or on the contrary be welcome since you are invested in game mastery yourself as a hardcore fan. But this is most problematic for the casual gamer. A casual gamer may still want all the tactics and options you want, he may want to have as much fun as you have but he does not want to learn or master artificial things to achieve this. What he wants is something more natural and friendly but equally powerful.

 

[xechnao]

Would you consider Chess a "casual" game?

If I were a Russian, I guess chess would be what comes in mind when someone says "a casual game"
No, seriously mass media press and stuff carry chess matches columns. All the chess rules fit relatively in a 2 page brochure.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

But to achieve this you do not need loads of crunch. You need the right interface or formula. For example in complex theory the application of a very simple rule may be generating a pattern just as complex as any patchwork you could be trying to create to make things as complex as you can.

To stay on an abstract level:
The problem is that "re-using" a formula requires working through an algorithmus. That is great for a computer, he will do your do {..} while loop 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times. He doesn't care.
Humans will find it boring after the 10th loop, if not before.

 

[xechnao]

To stay on an abstract level:
The problem is that "re-using" a formula requires working through an algorithmus. That is great for a computer, he will do your do {..} while loop 10 times, 100 times, 1000 times. He doesn't care.
Humans will find it boring after the 10th loop, if not before.

But you do not have to loop. Humans naturally attend a more fuzzy approach towards complex patterns and naturally expect more than just one thing to happen. They assign and value options or approaches probabilistically. The precision space that is left here is filled with group dynamics. Group dynamics themselves give statistical information to the player in a natural way since they lie in our natural operational realm. In practice this substitutes the whole loop because round after round things change and in the end group dynamics is what will matter -not seeing through the loop you are talking about.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

As often, I begin to lose understanding of what you want to say or express.

I think a lot of your theoretical discussions would be better if you posted some descriptive examples.

What does a "fuzzy aproach towards complex patterns" mean? "Assign and value options or approaches probabilistically"? How does this relate back to the simple rule that creates a complex pattern?

 

[Alikar]

WOW does everything that D&D4 does, but it's faster, easier and far more convenient than D&D4. Hence, I play WOW and not D&D4.

So how is that new Dungeon Maker in WoW?
What about that new tool that lets you open every door?
Or that dynamic dialogue where you can actually have a conversation with any NPC?
Or what about that amazing world shattering event that you helped move forward, that was your own idea!
How about that kingdom that you set up? I imagine your characters children are getting to the age where they too might go adventuring.
Perhaps you can explain further about the armies you raised up against the gnomish kingdom who insulted your dwarven brothers?
And speaking of dwarves I hear you can actually change their stats to what you like now in the game.

Its your world after all...

 

[AllisterH]

Isn't the biggest obstacle to D&D not getting players interested but getting players interested who actually want to DM?

I've been playing since 1e and all through the years, getting players has never been the problem. Finding one of them who wants to DM though? There;s the trick...

 

[Mournblade94]

They don't. Last I checked, the age group that reads the most comics is 18-20something.

I went through my comic collection a few days ago to replace some of the backing boards. I love doing this to look at the old adverts as the comics themselves.

The backs of comics in the 80's were often taken up by TSR: Top secret, Forgotten Realms grey box, Marvel superheroes, all the various products for their games. There ofcourse was often lots of candy and cookie ads as well.

I think it might have been last month or the month before, what did marvel have on its back advertisement?

A HONDA HYBRID...

I think this is VERY telling of who the current comic audience really is. The next most common to me seems to be Video game advertisments which is not very telling at all as comic fans hit the demographic VG companies are after.

INSIDE the comics have toy advertisements and young bedroom set adverts... is this aiming at kids or their parents?