D&D 5E Running D&D 5e for Levels 10+

[Stalker0]

More what? I makes since that balance is harder and more group dependent higher level the characters are. The GM has to counter for the group. What would you do to counter for later game access to an increasing number of magical equipment items, increase funds, more spells, and more class abilities that open a huge number of play possibilities based on group selection and individual player choices if you have no idea what those choices are or if the opted to homebrew and without knowing what optional rules like feats they are using? The more freedom and tools the games gives the harder for the designers to hope to balance it. Its so much more than an MMO like WOW the balance comparison is not relevant.

I think there are tiers of this. Its true that balance is more difficult at higher levels. That said, even if you take a regular old "balanced" party of the core roles (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) and go into high level fights you can quickly see that the standard CR encounters don't cut the mustard. The monsters generally just don't do enough damage, and can't take enough damage, to remain a threat. Further, part of the problem is that abilities just scale up...but to challenge high level parties you need more "epic" abilities to really do the challenge justice. Dragons are probably the worst offender here. High CR dragons are just the same as lower dragons but with higher numbers. They don't get anything new and unique to deal with the power of high level threats.

One example from 4e that I used for high level games.
1) Low levels: I used the standard "ongoing damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 10 fire damage again next round. Rinse and repeat. This was a normal 4e ability.
2) Mid Levels: I introduced "escalating damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 20 fire damage next round. The round after that, take 30.
3) High level: I introduced "crisis damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, IMMEDIATELY take 20 fire damage. Continue making saves until you pass or your dead.

Its not just higher damage, but the frequency increased to match the power of high level opponents. And let me tell you, that crisis damage scared my high level players!

 

[Lidgar]

Thanks for the response and suggestion regarding using the environment and time. With that said, a cursory glance at the challenge ratings makes me think I need to drastically increase the number of foes per encounter. (Using one of the calculators suggests 3 CR 5 monsters would be "hard." and 4-5 CR 5 monsters would be deadly. (For example, trolls are CR5; 3 trolls, or even six trolls would be easy for five level 10 pcs. I think 10 would he hard and 20 would be deadly.)

Remember you control HP as well. Max em out to give them more staying power.

 

[Oofta]

More what? I makes since that balance is harder and more group dependent higher level the characters are. The GM has to counter for the group. What would you do to counter for later game access to an increasing number of magical equipment items, increase funds, more spells, and more class abilities that open a huge number of play possibilities based on group selection and individual player choices if you have no idea what those choices are or if the opted to homebrew and without knowing what optional rules like feats they are using? The more freedom and tools the games gives the harder for the designers to hope to balance it. Its so much more than an MMO like WOW the balance comparison is not relevant.

Don't pay any attention to capnzapp. He wants a system tailored to his specific and unique game, takes into consideration magic items he happens to have given out or not, how good he is tactically vs his players, whether they use feats or not, so on and so forth.

Basically he wants the devs to come to his house, observe his group for a couple of sessions and then write custom rules specifically for him.

The CR guidelines are a starting point, that's all. There's no way they could be anything more. DMs have always and will always need to adjust the difficulty of the game to suit their players.

 

[Shiroiken]

I ran a game that ended at 18th level, with 5 regular PCs, 1 irregular PC (usually played by his wife when he wasn't there) and 2 full time NPCs. The biggest thing to realize that they can (assuming good player skill) do a lot more than an equal CR creature, so solo fights, even with lair actions and legendary actions, are not a good idea. CR isn't a good measure anyway, nor is the encounter guideline, so you probably want to build a lot of "Deadly" level fights to truly challenge the PCs. You might consider focusing on XP per day, rather than XP per encounter, unless you design adventures that force the 6-8 encounters per long rest. This weakens the short rest classes a bit, but it doesn't look like you'll have any of those anyway.

 

[CapnZapp]

Thanks for the response and suggestion regarding using the environment and time. With that said, a cursory glance at the challenge ratings makes me think I need to drastically increase the number of foes per encounter. (Using one of the calculators suggests 3 CR 5 monsters would be "hard." and 4-5 CR 5 monsters would be deadly. (For example, trolls are CR5; 3 trolls, or even six trolls would be easy for five level 10 pcs. I think 10 would he hard and 20 would be deadly.)

Adding foes does work well.

The problem is when people use that suggestion to fix complaints of weak-sauce solo bosses. No, more creatures is NOT an appropriate fix for ALL fights, especially the ones where the bad guy (dragon, demon,...) is supposed to be awesome enough to face all the heroes on his own.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[CapnZapp]

I think there are tiers of this. Its true that balance is more difficult at higher levels. That said, even if you take a regular old "balanced" party of the core roles (fighter, wizard, cleric, rogue) and go into high level fights you can quickly see that the standard CR encounters don't cut the mustard. The monsters generally just don't do enough damage, and can't take enough damage, to remain a threat. Further, part of the problem is that abilities just scale up...but to challenge high level parties you need more "epic" abilities to really do the challenge justice. Dragons are probably the worst offender here. High CR dragons are just the same as lower dragons but with higher numbers. They don't get anything new and unique to deal with the power of high level threats.

One example from 4e that I used for high level games.
1) Low levels: I used the standard "ongoing damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 10 fire damage again next round. Rinse and repeat. This was a normal 4e ability.
2) Mid Levels: I introduced "escalating damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, take 20 fire damage next round. The round after that, take 30.
3) High level: I introduced "crisis damage". Example: Take 10 fire damage. Make a save. If you fail, IMMEDIATELY take 20 fire damage. Continue making saves until you pass or your dead.

Its not just higher damage, but the frequency increased to match the power of high level opponents. And let me tell you, that crisis damage scared my high level players!

Hear, hear!

Someone is getting it! Listen to Stalker

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[CapnZapp]

Don't pay any attention to capnzapp. He wants a system tailored to his specific and unique game, takes into consideration magic items he happens to have given out or not, how good he is tactically vs his players, whether they use feats or not, so on and so forth.

Basically he wants the devs to come to his house, observe his group for a couple of sessions and then write custom rules specifically for him.

The CR guidelines are a starting point, that's all. There's no way they could be anything more. DMs have always and will always need to adjust the difficulty of the game to suit their players.

Don't be ridiculous.

You're trying to make 3e and 4e to look like I was in charge of WotC. While flattering, also preposterous.

Anyone reading this will immediately realize you're talking out your end pipe - all I want is for WotC to cater to players ready to leave easy mode.

Your attempt to justify how WotC can't step up their game has failed.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Don't pay any attention to capnzapp. He wants a system tailored to his specific and unique game, takes into consideration magic items he happens to have given out or not, how good he is tactically vs his players, whether they use feats or not, so on and so forth.
.

Whatever his faults, he certainly provides more useful input than you do.

 

[The Liverpuncher]

Many good suggestions here; I agree other factors need to be considered when presenting a combat. I like some of the ideas on different approaches to challenge ratings too.


The goal of course isn't to make TPK a possibility every encounter - but to make sure combats are challenging. All of them shouldn't be the same in terms of difficulty - but in 5e, it seems like every combat (for a higher level group) needs to be epic for them to be challenging. (Think about how poison worked in 1E; a group of high level pcs had good reason to be afraid to fight drow...

Getting back to my originally example, I think the party would pretty easily destroy a party of 20 trolls. (When the evoker and sorcerer can protect the party at point blank range, fireballs are super deadly). I think I may just throw this one at them to see what happens My other encounters will be against an evil group of adventurers around their level; a sneak attack /assassination attempt, and having them face off against a menagerie of nasty (charmed) gladiator creatures when trying to escape a prison. Should be fun!

 

[Oofta]

Don't be ridiculous.

You're trying to make 3e and 4e to look like I was in charge of WotC. While flattering, also preposterous.

Anyone reading this will immediately realize you're talking out your end pipe - all I want is for WotC to cater to players ready to leave easy mode.

Your attempt to justify how WotC can't step up their game has failed.

Sent from my C6603 using EN World mobile app

Thanks, I needed a chuckle.

If you ever come up with a method to fix the supposedly broken system, feel free to post. In every edition that's had suggested challenge/CR guidelines we've had to adjust based on our group. Unlike a computer game, the devs cannot know all the possible options.