Running dungeons with high level PCs (my players don't read - and yes, I'll know!)
A'koss
Explorer
The nature of the dungeon crawl does indeed change as you get into higher levels. I know a lot of DMs who like to take the "nerf" approach - dimensional anchor the dungeon, anti-scrying and anti-magic features. Personally, I like to force PCs to use those resources at their disposal.
Think environment... What if several levels of the dungeon were submerged underwater? Think of all the nasty "water hazards" you could put into place... Powerful, random currents to separate the PCs, reduced visiblity in murky water, perhaps some areas are superheated by geothermic vents? And this doesn't even take into account the matter of everyone breathing underwater for long peroids of time (and are now very vulnerable to dispels). You can bleed a lot of PC resources simply dealing with the environment itself.
Perhaps sections of the dungeon have been swallowed up and divided by a major earthquake (even better while the PCs were venturing in it!). The PCs will be required to scry/teleport just to get into some of these areas. And what if some of the surviving sections where turned on end so that instead of walking across a nice level floor, it turns into a major climbing expedition in a very unstable evironment. Put in a few beholders and let the fun begin...
Others? Smoke, volcanic ash, thin air, fouled air, very cold or very hot. Combine them too, make the PCs bleed off their resources having to deal with changing environmental threats. Perhaps apply a little time pressure, but don't go overboard - it's easy to piss players off if they feel they're constantly under the gun. The PCs may have to reach a certain area before it shifts off that plane of existance for example or perhaps they have to stop an artifact that is quickly growing in power and is doing "bad things" the surrounding region.
I could go on and on - you could turn sections of the dungeon into planar nodes, taking on the characteristics of a particular plane and it's effect on magic (this is particularly nasty if you throw in an area that mimic the planes of energy. Throw in a few dormant incorporeal threats which have been entombed/imprisoned in the areas surrounding the dungeon that would awaken if someone were to disturb them by say... moving through the walls or the floors.
Anyway, this should give you a few ideas at least...
Cheers,
A'koss.
Think environment... What if several levels of the dungeon were submerged underwater? Think of all the nasty "water hazards" you could put into place... Powerful, random currents to separate the PCs, reduced visiblity in murky water, perhaps some areas are superheated by geothermic vents? And this doesn't even take into account the matter of everyone breathing underwater for long peroids of time (and are now very vulnerable to dispels). You can bleed a lot of PC resources simply dealing with the environment itself.
Perhaps sections of the dungeon have been swallowed up and divided by a major earthquake (even better while the PCs were venturing in it!). The PCs will be required to scry/teleport just to get into some of these areas. And what if some of the surviving sections where turned on end so that instead of walking across a nice level floor, it turns into a major climbing expedition in a very unstable evironment. Put in a few beholders and let the fun begin...
Others? Smoke, volcanic ash, thin air, fouled air, very cold or very hot. Combine them too, make the PCs bleed off their resources having to deal with changing environmental threats. Perhaps apply a little time pressure, but don't go overboard - it's easy to piss players off if they feel they're constantly under the gun. The PCs may have to reach a certain area before it shifts off that plane of existance for example or perhaps they have to stop an artifact that is quickly growing in power and is doing "bad things" the surrounding region.
I could go on and on - you could turn sections of the dungeon into planar nodes, taking on the characteristics of a particular plane and it's effect on magic (this is particularly nasty if you throw in an area that mimic the planes of energy. Throw in a few dormant incorporeal threats which have been entombed/imprisoned in the areas surrounding the dungeon that would awaken if someone were to disturb them by say... moving through the walls or the floors.
Anyway, this should give you a few ideas at least...
Cheers,
A'koss.
I absolutely agree that coming up with excuses to nullify PC abilties is lame at any level and its also a sign of poor DMing. The PC's have earned some nifty abilities and they are using them to their advantage. As a DM, I look at the abilities of my NPC's and see what they can do.
Your PC's are using their abilities to gather information, overcome obstacles and fall back when necessary. And they are doing this inside what is essentially, if I remember correctly, an exstensive temple to Orcus. So, from the point of view of a priest of Orcus or another NPC who resides in RA, they are being invaded. I'm not sure what all NPCs are in RA, but I'm pretty sure there are several high level cleric types and tons of servants, such as wererats. At this point, the major powers of the dungeon should be aware that there are several high-level characters invading their terf. While the PC's are between forays, the powers of RA need to come up with a plan that will allow them to detect the presence of intruders, locate the intruders and retaliate. The clerics and any spy-type critters, such as wererats, should be able to handle the detection and location part. The retaliation depends on what critters are on hand and what the clerics, etc..., can summon.
At some point, the PC's are going to fall back to "town." Do the residents of RA have any connections with assassins and the like? Hitting the PCs on their home terf will give them a lot to think about
Sorry this is so disjointed. Its late. I guess the point is that your players have decent level PC's who are probably messing with the plans of high level NPC's, so use the abilties of the NPC's. The game should balance out fairly well and one of the end results should be that the PC's will now have to try and outthink the NPC's and, most likely, try and locate and eliminate the NPC's, which will result in the PC having to "stick it out" just to reach an enemy leader because everytime the PC retreat, the NPC has that much more time to boslter their defenses.
Your right, though, you can't "re-live" the low-level feel of a dungeon crawl. The abilities of higher level PC's make most obstacles a minor pain at best. The thing I like about high level play, is that the players, or at least a few of them, have to start thinking strategically. In this instance, the need to eliminate a big bad guy before he or she eliminates us should add a good dose of urgency to the game.
Your PC's are using their abilities to gather information, overcome obstacles and fall back when necessary. And they are doing this inside what is essentially, if I remember correctly, an exstensive temple to Orcus. So, from the point of view of a priest of Orcus or another NPC who resides in RA, they are being invaded. I'm not sure what all NPCs are in RA, but I'm pretty sure there are several high level cleric types and tons of servants, such as wererats. At this point, the major powers of the dungeon should be aware that there are several high-level characters invading their terf. While the PC's are between forays, the powers of RA need to come up with a plan that will allow them to detect the presence of intruders, locate the intruders and retaliate. The clerics and any spy-type critters, such as wererats, should be able to handle the detection and location part. The retaliation depends on what critters are on hand and what the clerics, etc..., can summon.
At some point, the PC's are going to fall back to "town." Do the residents of RA have any connections with assassins and the like? Hitting the PCs on their home terf will give them a lot to think about
Sorry this is so disjointed. Its late. I guess the point is that your players have decent level PC's who are probably messing with the plans of high level NPC's, so use the abilties of the NPC's. The game should balance out fairly well and one of the end results should be that the PC's will now have to try and outthink the NPC's and, most likely, try and locate and eliminate the NPC's, which will result in the PC having to "stick it out" just to reach an enemy leader because everytime the PC retreat, the NPC has that much more time to boslter their defenses.
Your right, though, you can't "re-live" the low-level feel of a dungeon crawl. The abilities of higher level PC's make most obstacles a minor pain at best. The thing I like about high level play, is that the players, or at least a few of them, have to start thinking strategically. In this instance, the need to eliminate a big bad guy before he or she eliminates us should add a good dose of urgency to the game.
Orcus
First Post
Dont forget this dungeon--particularly the lowest levels--was created by Orcus himself or by extremely high level creatures on his behalf with access to wish/miracle type magic. Plus, there is Orcus' divine (well, demonic anyway will. Orcus certainly wouldnt want kick ass high level guys just popping onto his doorstep. I have always run the lowest levels that due to his evil god powers teleportation on the lowest levels is impossible except between connected open spaces (like d-dooring, for example). Dont overuse the "evil god power" thing or characters start to feel you are "cheating", though you arent.
You also need to disabuse your PCs of the notion that the only power you have at your disposal are the same powers they have at theirs. That is rediculous. You arent bound by effects detailed in the PHB. You have, as the DM, the epic magic powers of evil demonic entities--stuff the PCs can never match and should never have any expectation of matching (and I dont mean epic magic as in Epci Levle Handbook, I mean "this dude is a freaking god and there is just magic that you dont have access to"). I have heard of players saying "hey, there is no spell in the PHB taht lets you do that." If that is your type of player, you are screwed.
Just remember, this is the entrance lair to a demon-god's abode. He has used all his powers to protect himself.
As for burrowing, what abilities are they using to do that? Sounds like that would attract a horde of purple worms to me. Let them deal with that.
Clark
will. Orcus certainly wouldnt want kick ass high level guys just popping onto his doorstep. I have always run the lowest levels that due to his evil god powers teleportation on the lowest levels is impossible except between connected open spaces (like d-dooring, for example). Dont overuse the "evil god power" thing or characters start to feel you are "cheating", though you arent.You also need to disabuse your PCs of the notion that the only power you have at your disposal are the same powers they have at theirs. That is rediculous. You arent bound by effects detailed in the PHB. You have, as the DM, the epic magic powers of evil demonic entities--stuff the PCs can never match and should never have any expectation of matching (and I dont mean epic magic as in Epci Levle Handbook, I mean "this dude is a freaking god and there is just magic that you dont have access to"). I have heard of players saying "hey, there is no spell in the PHB taht lets you do that." If that is your type of player, you are screwed.
Just remember, this is the entrance lair to a demon-god's abode. He has used all his powers to protect himself.
As for burrowing, what abilities are they using to do that? Sounds like that would attract a horde of purple worms to me. Let them deal with that.
Clark
LightPhoenix
First Post
Well, since you mention resting specifically, I guess I'll take a stab at that.
With higher-level parties, I think the best thing to do is make the antagonists play a more pro-active role, instead of a passive or defensive one. They're going to be planning too, and I doubt that they're unaware of the group's presence. When the party rests, stress the idea that the bad guys are taking that opportunity to bolster their defenses - more traps, and specifically geared toward the party; more enemies in more strategic places; there's any number of things you could do.
High-level NPC spellcasters will have the same resources at their disposal as PCs. A high-level wizard should be scrying the PCs somehow. Maybe the cleric has talk to their god, and gotten some pointers. The fighter could have acquired an item or two specifically to counter the PC's abilities. Perhaps a wizard teleports himself and his allies or minions right in the middle of the PCs.
It does change the dynamics of dungeon crawls immensely. As I'm sure Piratecat (and players) can attest to, it can still work at higher levels, but it takes a lot more forethought and planning.
With higher-level parties, I think the best thing to do is make the antagonists play a more pro-active role, instead of a passive or defensive one. They're going to be planning too, and I doubt that they're unaware of the group's presence. When the party rests, stress the idea that the bad guys are taking that opportunity to bolster their defenses - more traps, and specifically geared toward the party; more enemies in more strategic places; there's any number of things you could do.
High-level NPC spellcasters will have the same resources at their disposal as PCs. A high-level wizard should be scrying the PCs somehow. Maybe the cleric has talk to their god, and gotten some pointers. The fighter could have acquired an item or two specifically to counter the PC's abilities. Perhaps a wizard teleports himself and his allies or minions right in the middle of the PCs.
It does change the dynamics of dungeon crawls immensely. As I'm sure Piratecat (and players) can attest to, it can still work at higher levels, but it takes a lot more forethought and planning.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
(1) Think like the monster. What would you do if your home was being invaded by a guy who could sit inside the walls? Dynamite is one answer....get them out! If they go up a rope trick, have a bright guy give a sneaky mook a bag of holding or similar....extradimensional space inside an extradimensional space = random planar rift, ne? Don't neglect Dispel and Greater Dispel. Your home is being invaded, man. No resource is too great to spend.
(2) Use the environment. Water-filled chasms, rooms with fire burning out the oxygen, traps that negate magic...all force the PC's to use resources.
(3) Keep it coming. Don't keep throwing monsters at them, but make it so they don't want to rest....perhaps one of their friends was captured, and they need to get to him quick, perhaps they've been hearing plaintive cries of "Heeeelp!" coming from down the dark and dangerous corridoor (great Blue Dragon lure). Maybe they're actively looking for an NPC who may be lost.
(4) Make the journey the goal. They're going to circumvent a passage way when it's just a stop on the road, but if, say, the passageway *contains* their goal (perhaps that is where the treasure is burried, or that is where they must look for the rune that will allow them through the staircase, or that is where the NPC that they need to save is kept).
(5) Dispel. Don't overuse it, but one or two uses will make the PC's aware that they can't lurk and jerk effectively. It suddenly makes them re-consider most of the options available to them. This also applies to counter-magic. For every divination power, there's an illusion that can decieve it. For every movement spell, there's a wall that can stop it. For every rest spell, there's a trap that can be put there over night. You can't afford to ignore the PC's magic anymore...it's their main asset, and yours, too.
In general, if it's just point-A to point-B movement, they're going to take the quickest route possible to point B. But if the point is the movement (they have to find something/get something/kill something along the way), then even though they can teleport, they don't really want to. And if they want to teleport, by this level, their enemies should be well enough aware of them and their capabilities to plan for that eventuality....let them teleport in over their heads, let them circumvent the trap (or think they have, thanks to Mirage Arcana)...the real challenge isn't the journey or the trap, the real challenge is the critter at the end (a good +4 CR points above their level), or the dialogue with the hostage-holding BBEG, or the destruction of the NPC's magic item (and the NPC happens to be located somehwere in the deepest, darkest chasm of monsters in the dungeon)....it's not a direct motion, anymore. It's a problem to solve.
Don't neglect Dispel and Greater Dispel. Your home is being invaded, man. No resource is too great to spend.(2) Use the environment. Water-filled chasms, rooms with fire burning out the oxygen, traps that negate magic...all force the PC's to use resources.
(3) Keep it coming. Don't keep throwing monsters at them, but make it so they don't want to rest....perhaps one of their friends was captured, and they need to get to him quick, perhaps they've been hearing plaintive cries of "Heeeelp!" coming from down the dark and dangerous corridoor (great Blue Dragon lure). Maybe they're actively looking for an NPC who may be lost.
(4) Make the journey the goal. They're going to circumvent a passage way when it's just a stop on the road, but if, say, the passageway *contains* their goal (perhaps that is where the treasure is burried, or that is where they must look for the rune that will allow them through the staircase, or that is where the NPC that they need to save is kept).
(5) Dispel. Don't overuse it, but one or two uses will make the PC's aware that they can't lurk and jerk effectively. It suddenly makes them re-consider most of the options available to them. This also applies to counter-magic. For every divination power, there's an illusion that can decieve it. For every movement spell, there's a wall that can stop it. For every rest spell, there's a trap that can be put there over night. You can't afford to ignore the PC's magic anymore...it's their main asset, and yours, too.
In general, if it's just point-A to point-B movement, they're going to take the quickest route possible to point B. But if the point is the movement (they have to find something/get something/kill something along the way), then even though they can teleport, they don't really want to. And if they want to teleport, by this level, their enemies should be well enough aware of them and their capabilities to plan for that eventuality....let them teleport in over their heads, let them circumvent the trap (or think they have, thanks to Mirage Arcana)...the real challenge isn't the journey or the trap, the real challenge is the critter at the end (a good +4 CR points above their level), or the dialogue with the hostage-holding BBEG, or the destruction of the NPC's magic item (and the NPC happens to be located somehwere in the deepest, darkest chasm of monsters in the dungeon)....it's not a direct motion, anymore. It's a problem to solve.
I'm A Banana
Potassium-Rich
Right in the spell it warns against it (check the PHB)....The Bag of Holding and Portable Hole descriptions in the DMG claims that sticking i'em in each other opens an Astral Rift, and it'd be a fair ruling that taking it into a Rope Trick's little box does the same thing. I mean, the spell warns against it, right within the pages of the PHB....thoiugh I don't see anything specific about it, it seems like quite a fair ruling, myself...
johnsemlak
First Post
If the PCs are doing so and resting as long as they want or indefinitely, perhaps create some time pressure on them, something that will force them to achieve something or reach somewhere in a limited amount of time.
I dont' have hte module in front of me, but...
1. Have a player infected with a disease (one magical and vile in nature and beyond the aid of Cure Disease or even Raise Dead--does the BoVD have stuff like that?) and place the cure at a lower level.
2. as noted above, have the NPC leaders organize forays and such against the PCs.
3. The NPCs could start to call for reinforcements from outside the dungeon, and become impossibly strong if the PCs wait to long.
4. Keep the PCs focused on their aims withen the dungeon, and add some time limit to that (are they already aware they aim to destroy the three chapels?)
my two kopeks
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