Running dungeons with high level PCs (my players don't read - and yes, I'll know!)

[Olgar Shiverstone]

If they run down their resources overcoming environmental challenges (water, lava, burrowing through earth) that's that many fewer spells they have when the bad guys hit them -- time some encounters to take advantage of that, hitting them at the exits to those areas, possibly separating the party in the process. For example, if the whole party can't fly/swim simultaneously and need trips to ferry everyone across the chasm/river/lava, hit 'em when they're half done.

Anti-magic can be fun, but becomes old quickly, so use it sparingly. Our group (8th/9th) spend a long time trying to cross a 30-foot crevasse in an anti-magic zone, because they'd forgotten how to do things without magic (and had run very short on rope due to overreliance on magic). It made for a fun obstacle, because they hadn't had to think that hard in a while.

 

[der_kluge]

The party immediately followed (homebrew spell that sort of "piggybacks" someone else's teleport), and found themselves in a pitch-black crypt, with no obvious exit, and facing off with a lich who had a lot of his evil minions with him and suspected they were coming. The results were not pretty...

I'd like to see that piggyback teleport spell, if you don't mind posting it.

 

[Celtavian]

re

You should never feel bad about modifying the adventure. Module designers can't possibly account for every possible tactic used by the PC's. If they are using a particular tactic commonly, then you can probably assume that others have used such tactics in a megadungeon of legend like Rappan Athuk and prepare a counter for it.

Some of the above suggestions for modification are great like throwing a patrolling burrowing creature in the dungeon. If they defeat it, don't replace replace it immediately. Set a time scale for when such a creature might be replaced by the main enemy. Do that during the creation process so you aren't arbitrarily creating an obstacle. That will give the player's a feeling of accomplishment for bypassing the defense, while still giving a plausible timeframe for replacing that particular defense mechanism.

Certain mazes should be reinforced with extraordinary materials. If the PC's find a simple, but common, way of circumventing a maze like polymorphing or passwall, then most likely the enemy has found a way to prevent it in certain areas where bypassing defeats the purpose of the obstacle.

I highly recommend controlling what supplements your player's have access to, and spending alot of preparation time thinking about the possible abuses of a given spell, magic item, or ability and how a person might counter it. Do your preparation like you are some evil bastard designing a dungeon for keeping out pesky, interfering adventurers.

DM = Evil Enemy of PC's (At lower levels you want to help them succeed, at higher levels they dont' need the help.)

You really have to think that way in the high level game. It is more like playing a game of chess where you have to move and countermove your opponent (the PC's). The PC's will always be thinking of ways to counter what you have planned. Once they counter you once, you rethink your game and counter them. Back and forth as the party rises in level.

That basically means sometimes you are going to have to let them run roughshod over encounters you thought were tough, and at other times you are going to have to rein in the bad guys to prevent a TPK. High level games are hard to gauge, and it takes ample DM interference to make it work until you gain experience handling high level encounters.

 

[diaglo]

If they run down their resources overcoming environmental challenges (water, lava, burrowing through earth) that's that many fewer spells they have when the bad guys hit them -- time some encounters to take advantage of that, hitting them at the exits to those areas, possibly separating the party in the process. For example, if the whole party can't fly/swim simultaneously and need trips to ferry everyone across the chasm/river/lava, hit 'em when they're half done.

Anti-magic can be fun, but becomes old quickly, so use it sparingly. Our group (8th/9th) spend a long time trying to cross a 30-foot crevasse in an anti-magic zone, because they'd forgotten how to do things without magic (and had run very short on rope due to overreliance on magic). It made for a fun obstacle, because they hadn't had to think that hard in a while.

and you can read about it in my sig.

 

[Michael Morris]

I'm running Rappan Athuk right now (halfway through RA2). My group started the dungeon at level 5, and they are now about level 10. I'm very inexperienced when it comes to higher-level play, and wonder how to handle all of the various abilities and spells possessed by characters of such levels.

The problem is that at this level, they have access to teleportation, polymorphs, flight and other useful magics. This pretty much nullifies a lot of what makes Rappan Athuk (or any other dungeon) so deadly - it occurs to me that dungeon-crawls aren't appropriate for a higher level party.

Fight magic with magic. Many of the spells I've developed in Art of Magic are written more with a DM in mind than a player. I can send you the whole document to playtest if you'd like. Here are a three examples that will help in some of the circumstances you describe:

AEther Flash
Abjuration (Ward) [Red, Triggered]
Level: (6), Sor/Wiz 7
Components:[/b] V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25' + 5' / 2 levels)
Effect: 60' radius sphere
Duration: 1 hour / level (D)
Saving Throw: Fortitude ½
Spell Resistance: Yes

“I said I wanted to take the high road, not the HOT road!” – Malsan.

Creatures which enter or leave the area of effect through the use of any magic (teleport, gate, summon monster, etc.) take 1d6 damage / caster level to a maximum of 15d6 points of damage.

If the party is addicted to teleport their fist encounter with AEther Flash will not be a pleasant one. The best (ab)use is to have an NPC or two shadow their movement through the dungeon and wait for them to teleport out. Cast the spell and it is very likely to be waiting on them when they get back (in the hands of an 11th level caster it will stick around for 11 hours. Recast as necessary until the party show up). Combine this spell with an ambush for particularly nasty results.

Of course, I once had a wizard teleport into one of these and not realizing what had happened he immediately teleported home. 22d6 is hard to survive by a 10th level wizard.

Flaring Pain
Abjuration (Ward) [Red]
Level: Red 7
Range: Medium (100’ + 10’ / level)
Area: Circle extending out to the range

She wept to find that all the curative magic in the world could not avail her now.

As antimagic shell except that flaring pain only suppresses conjuration (healing) effects.

Because of it's huge range flaring pain is useful in a fight. Putting it on a lich or some creature that has reason to fear healing effects is a very nice combo.

Back to Basics
Abjuration (Ward) [Blue]
Level: (6), Brd 6, Sor/Wiz 7
Components: V, S, M
Range: Close (25’ + 5’ / 2 levels)
Area: An emanation centered on you extending to the limit of the range.

“Aye, that magic sword there is quite better than me club, but which would you rather have to fight a rust monster with?” – Eric.

This spell works like antimagic field except back to basics only suppresses spells with the enhancement descriptor and magic item effects which replicate any enhancement spell.
Material Component: A copper coin.

Back to basics placed on an iron golem is one of my personal favorite rat bastard DM tricks.

 

[der_kluge]

My own party is 10th level as well. Though, they are more combat heavy (barbarian and a fighter) so my problems may be less severe.

I'm like you with regard to imposing artificial hindrances in the game. I would never stoop to lining the walls with adamantine, or placing in arbitrary anti-magic zones unless there was a specific reason to do so.

However, in general, these are the things that I find make an enjoyable high level game -

- don't assume that a single BBEG is going to be any challenge for a party of 10th level PCs. The trick is to have the enemy attack in waves. My party is clever in that the fighters are always up front dealing with the bad guys while the rest stay in the back and offer secondary support through spells, or ranged attacks. Their weakness comes when I hit them from behind, I can do massive damage to the rogue and spellcasters before the party knows what has hit them.

- exploit their weaknesses. The barbarian and the fighter in my groups are complete and utter bad asses. But their will saves suck. One successful domination (and with a follow-up save to convince them to attack their own party), and you've got an entirely different encounter on your hands. Enraged barbarians also attack anyone that attacks them as well.

- let the PCs be their own worst enemy. My sorcerer felt real cocky, and went off exploring by himself in a submerged section of dungeon. He was doing ok, using Blink to breath while ethereal - until an Aboleth dominated him, and he drowned once his blink wore off.

- Place the party in a "living" environment. Like others have stated, the inhabitants of this place aren't going to like being invaded. Plus, digging big holes and fighting purple worms are going to create a huge amount of noise - especially in a dungeon. Think about Moria where Pip (or was it Meri?) drops the chain down the well in the dwarven tomb. He awoke the entire dungeon and alerted everyone to their presence.

- Define tactics for all creatures. My big weakness is forgetting about all the abilities that a creature has. I got my last BBEG killed because I failed to remember that his helm could cast d-door 2/per day. Had I remembered that, I could have had him escape to fight another day. So, always create a tactics outline for each monster, especially the important ones. Spellcasters will often have active spells up, especially ones that have a duration of 24 hours, so it's important to note those as well. The tactics that you define don't have to be elaborate, but it should start with all the most deadly abilities first (i.e., the dragon will begin by casting dispel magic, and on the following round it will breathe fire), etc. If you just plop a dragon into an encounter, you might not have time to think about what it's best options are, or even what spells it currently has memorized. A monster can easily jump 3 or 4 CR levels if you just plan accordingly. Also, include a plan for failure. Like "if the dragon is being defeated, he will attempt to cast teleport to flee into the forest", etc.

 

[TiQuinn]

A lot of good suggestions here and many that I'll have to remember to use myself.

A couple of rat-bastard DM tricks that I've used or seen:

1) A trapped room that had alternating zones of Reverse Gravity. It works even better when a Beholder is floating in the room along with them, easily moving about.

2) Invisible quasits accompanying guards, monsters, or lurking in encounter areas. Their job: To do nothing but observe the PCs, follow them, and report their location and tactics back to their masters. If they are spotted with See Invisibility or Detect Evil, more are sent out with Nondetection spells cast upon them as well.

3) Our 13th level characters loved to create burrows in the earth that we would seal behind us to prevent intruders from gaining entry. And the cleric we eventually fought thanked us for the opportunity to cast Earthquake once he had divined our location.

4) Any evil druids in the area? Stone Tell is a nice little spell for rooting out PCs who like to hide in self-created burrows.

Finally, the party does have to rest eventually. I know this may sound like a way of cheating, but think about it...once the big shots in the dungeon know that you are essentially camping in their backyard, they are going to take advantage of the fact that YOU eventually HAVE to rest. His minions, particularly undead, either don't have to or can search in teams. They have the advantage of numbers and this is a good way to put that advantage into play. Eventually the party is going to have to switch tactics, possibly leaving the dungeon to rest.

 

[diaglo]

Finally, the party does have to rest eventually. I know this may sound like a way of cheating, but think about it...once the big shots in the dungeon know that you are essentially camping in their backyard, they are going to take advantage of the fact that YOU eventually HAVE to rest. His minions, particularly undead, either don't have to or can search in teams. They have the advantage of numbers and this is a good way to put that advantage into play. Eventually the party is going to have to switch tactics, possibly leaving the dungeon to rest.

and you can't recover spells without proper rest.

every 2 hours or so...a noise wakes the party....

 

[silentspace]

Great thread here.

One thing to remember is that the bad guys will know where the PCs are. They are not stupid. They have surveillance (both physical and magical). That rat could be a familiar. That insect could be a shape-changer. Ethereal creatures and shadow creatures have their place. Especially if the party has used hit-and-run tactics before, leaving dead bodies, broken walls, etc behind. Or even if they haven’t, the bad guys will figure out that they haven’t heard from Tom and Dick for a while, and will get suspicious. It’s not hard for the bad guys to know exactly where the party is at all times.

If for some reason the bad guys are too incompetent to know exactly where the party is, then at the very least they will be tracking them. And in addition to the trackers, there will be regular patrols. The patrols are either very tough (as they should be), or carry alarms (physical or magical) with them, to alert the tough guys.

 

[silentspace]

Don’t feel bad about using lead walls in high level dungeons. The way I see it, lead or adamantine walls are a variant of Wall of Iron, and easy to build. Stone walls with metal cores should be very common in a world of magic. Otherwise, what’s the point of building castles and dungeons? Any Passwall or Stone Shape can by-pass them. People as early as the Romans were reinforcing their walls with metal (not with solid 1” thick sheets, but then again they didn’t have access to magic )