Running dungeons with high level PCs (my players don't read - and yes, I'll know!)

[Mark]

...they use extended rope-tricks and the like to hide for as long as they need.

Nothing like a little acid shower or searing flames to tatter clothing and destroy rope. No rope = no rope trick.

 

[I'm A Banana]

So if I see them on the boards, should I suddenly and for no aparent reason bring extradimensional spaces and astral rifts into the conversation?

I'd like to hear the result of all this advice, if you don't mind posting it after the fact, Morrus....see how well it works in action.

 

[WizarDru]

Speaking as a DM who's currently running a party of 21st/22nd level characters through a dungeon (in this case, the palace of the Githyanki Queen), I can assure you that higher level dungeons exist, and can work. (as if PCs testimony wasn't good enough ).

There's been a lot of good advice in the thread.

My quick list:

1. Unnerve your Players: PC is a master of this, as you've seen. The trick here is to upset their expectations. These don't have to include threats. In 'Lich Queen's Beloved' (Dragon 100) there is a room with walls of illithid skin, behind which hundreds of githzerai zombies push, making the walls writhe and moan. Even though, mechanically, my pcs could easily defeat the threat (and, in fact, walked right past it)...it still was distrubing. Players who encounter things that they don't understand, regardless of actual threat level, tend to slow down and be more cautious.
2. Challenging Environments: There is a section in the DMG about environmental hazards. Study it. Heat. Cold. UNDERWATER. Heavy winds. Fog. You'd be amazed how fast a blizzard can shut a 18th level party down. High winds can negate those PCs who never stop flying, floating or polymorphing. Make the players use those less used abilites, or lament not having them ready. A gust of wind spell isn't terribly exciting...until you wish you had one to dispel the fog.
3. Unique Areas: Add areas with strange features. Not necessarily lethal ones...in fact, make them a mix of dangerous and beneficial. Players tend to not go rushing off into places when they suddenly find themselves faced with strange situations, such as an area where spells have their ranges changed, or there targets shifted 10 feet randomly, and so on.
4. Make it personal: It's been said that the villains aren't dumb. This can be true. And even the lowest flunky can be a threat...when you remember that the friends and allies of the PCs aren't necessarily the bruisers that they are. Sure, Scorch is a mighty wizard...but his kid sister isn't. One kidnapping later, and a new level of urgency has been added.
5. Let them get in over their heads: RA is about 3rd edition rules, 1st edition feel. That means, in true ToEE fashion, the players can take a shortcut to a much more dangerous situation than they anticipated. Let them burn their fingers once, and keep them honest. Let them discover a beholder. The hard way. Let them escape. They don't have to know the beholder is trapped...at least not at first. He could just be an immovable object, for now.
6. Dress up the Usual: PC's personal speciality is to take the familiar, rub off the serial numbers, change it slightly and reuse it. One quick glance at the Necropede should show that. A 'standard' monster, dressed up in different clothes with one or two changes in both ability description and functionality. Less work for you, more challenge for them. Remember, the unknown is a powerful ally, paduan.
7. Make them censor themselves: One of the primary things a spellcaster hates is to not cast spells. However, one of the other things they hate is to waste spells. Pit these against each other. Put simple challenges before them, and let them work it out on their own. Do I waste the Fly now, to get across the ravine, or use another spell? Do I hold off fighting the orcs, since they're weak, or do I worry that one might be a polymorphed Displacer Beast? Disintegrate or Finger of Death or Charm Monster? What to do, what to do?
8. Don't OVERUSE these: Don't be arbitrary, and don't prevent your players from using their well-deserved powers. If they clawed their way up, then they've got a right to be able to open a can. Let them feel their oats. But if you let them cocky, it's OK to knock them down a peg. But unless you want to be seen as an opponent, instead of the guy running the game, you need to use any of these with some restraint. The idea should be to give them pause, not to harrass them or cause the game to bog down.

That's a few off the top of my head. If you want more advice, just ask.

 

[Klaus]

I agree with not "arbitrarily nullifying" the party's power, but the denizens of the dungeon are very well capable of learning these tricks!

Check out Scott Holden-Jones' article on playing a 400-year-old lich with Int 27 here: http://www.fierydragon.com/DB/DB_APR02_2003.htm

Whenever the players get a new idea that circumvents a challenge, let it work once or twice. But it is reasonable to assume that the enemies will prepare for this trick (feeding umber hulk flesh to the purple worms so that, next time a PC changes into an umber hulk, a purple worm will come for dinner).

 

[Polydamas]

Earlier on (oh, about the first post) Morrus mentioned keeping the dungeon claustrophobic. We had a series of underdark crawling adventures that were very intense...until the sorceress hit 10th and got teleport. Then half of the party was relaxing in town every day.

I think a way to avoid this would be to "lock" the dungeon. No one can teleport into or outside of the dungeon, but they can go anywhere within it. Collapse the main entrance or post guards there, and I think you'll start to get that closed in feeling. You don't need people constantly harrassing them, ti will just be enough to know they can't get out until they fufill some condition.

As to how, I'd have them (or someone they are fighting) trip some trap or device that sends the dungeon into lockdown. With a commune, they should find out what they can do to lift it, which will involve travelling further into the dungeon. I'm sure others will have some better ideas.

This way the players can keep their cool abilities.

 

[Phoenix_Knightwind]

Speaking as someone who runs a quarterly epic level game with a party containing 3 wizards, of all of the advice above, the idea to use the environment is most effective.

Also, you must remember that powerful foes usualy got there because they were smart and patient. My players had the same ability to rest in a seccure locatioin throughout our last adventure, but the dragon whose home they were invading had the ability to know approximately where they would emerge and always had a suprrise waiting for them.

 

[omnimpotent]

I don't know Rappan Athuk, but I did finish running a group through RttToEE, and found myself with some of the problems you've mentioned.

Teleporting in and out was something of a problem, but I cut down on it a bit by looking up the weight limits on the teleport spell, and had the players add up how much their "Loaded for Bear" characters weighed. Turns out that one of the party would have to stay behind each time, a problem not helped by their cunning plan to keep the monk polymorphed into a troll all the time for the awesome stats. (Stupid 3.0 Polymorph...) This was somewhat solved by Polymorphing a party member into a snake for encumbrance purposes, but there goes another high level spell, and this sort of arrangement isn't practical in a combat situation. Also, you can only teleport people you can touch, right? Walls cut down on touching. Cast Wall of ... in combat for laughs. More on that later.

I didn't have too much trouble with scrying, fortunately. I think it is wholly reasonable, though, to have goodly sections of a high level dungeon lead-shielded or otherwise scry-proof. (especially personal quarters and war rooms.) Especially if the resident bad guys are magic savvy like the RttToEE gang were. Heck, even making most of the dungeons "hot areas" teleport proof and ethereal proof would be very reasonable, as at high levels Not doing so would be like leaving the screen door open on the nuclear sub. I just figure that the high level baddies don't especially like walking either, and a certain portion of any area will be "teleport open" for their use also. Of course, these areas would be as guarded or trapped as the front door.

If the PCs used a lot of buff-scry-teleport, I don't see why the bad guys wouldn't, too. Getting a party description from some surviving minion, bad guy scrys them at their nocturnal resting place, assembles strike team, 'ports in, dumps a one-round salvo into sentry/campsite, and one bad guy of strike team has a readied teleport home. Works good with sneak attacks vs. single sentry (heaven help 'em if he goes down...) or a fireball into the campsite. Cloudkill for your tunnelling campers would be more fun for you than your players, and is minimal risk for your villain. Just make them need more healing spells, and give them less time to get spells. This speeds players up like no ticking clock ever seems to. Oh, and your players will love to hate the guys responsible for this. If your players come up with a solution, steal it for the bad guys. They can't complain if the baddies see them doing it.

The other thing players love to hate in combat are environment/obstacle challenges. Consider a mephit, air elemental, or something else small and maneuverable with silence and invisibility cast on it, whose orders are to stay out of the way in combat, not attack, but to stay near a spell caster. Or a demon, who can see in magical darkness, and use darkness at will. At will! How many layered darkness spells would this creature have going at one time in the spot where it would prefer to fight the PCs? Sure, a light spell can cancel one, but that's only one. Area dispels are better, but that could be a lot of rolls, and they'll still fail one, right? Plus, that's one less spell to do something else with. The mist and fog spells are low level, but cut down on those blast spells from afar. If the PC's can't see, move the combat action from the battlemat to behind the screen. And walls. Doesn't matter what kind. Ice, fire, stone, steel, force. If you can cut the party in half, a weenie fight can become serious. If you can't touch the cleric, and he can't touch you, see how cocky you are against even moderate foes. Hell, done right, you can even wind up with the wizard or other soft target in melee, which is an eye opener.

Oh, nuts. I'm really not this longwinded in real life. This is just more fun than work, is all. Anyhoo, don't go too heavy on some of these ploys, just enough to challenge 'em, not piss 'em off. You'll know you've done right when they start to steal your ideas. Nobody used enveloping mist until I screwed 'em with it.

 

[the Jester]

The party in my game is running into Epic levels, but for years now they've been tearing dungeons up with rock to mud and rock to magma spells. I tell you, they've lost more loot that way... but they've also taken big monsters down quickly (there's a fight going on in my To War Against Felenga story hour where a pivotal moment to come involves some impromptu spell-based remodelling of the dungeon by the pcs). The area of effect of those two spells is pretty darn immense.

At higher levels, earthquake becomes another 'remodelling' spell.

It's difficult to challenge high-level pcs with a dungeon, but here are a few tricks that help:

-Put something in there that they want. If it's in something completely lead-lined, it won't be subject to scrying. They can't do wholesale dungeon remodelling because they have to find the object and don't want to break it.

-Put in obstacles that require their abilities to get through. Information they can only get with divination magic or bardic lore, a door that only opens to someone who can channel at high levels of ability, an obstacle that has to be flown over, etc.

-Mix bad environments in with monsters to make encounters more interesting and more challenging. Fighting on a narrow bridge over a pool of acid is more exciting than fighting in a featureless chamber.

 

[Kichwas]

Think environment...


Perhaps sections of the dungeon have been swallowed up and divided by a major earthquake (even better while the PCs were venturing in it!).

I love the idea of a major quake while the PCs are in the dungeon... suddenly flipping all the normal rules of suvival on end. The PCs and any humanoid adversaries find themselves in a position of having to cooperate to dig out, then resume their antogonism, or all die together as the air or food runs out.

Of course this fails if you have telporters or other ways to just ignore the environment.

What I found enlivening in a higher level dungeon I played through earlier this year was having a host of native factions - some of them also higher level, all competing over the landscape we were delving through. We might go through the same area twice in a matter of days and find completely different people running it, or come across scenes of mass carnage - the bodies of critters we had to run from scattered all about like mice after the cat is done playing... And eventually, the other side comes up with somebody who can scry and teleport...

I've also seen a battle with critters that phased half the party over into the ethereal plane... the half with no means to get out or communicate back. The party could stick together, but half of us thought the other half were dead and eaten... and the 'ghost' half was stuck dealing with a variety of critters the physical half could not see but could definately fall victim to...

At any level of dungeon play you're delving into someone else's home. If you can phase through the walls and teleport around - then at high level they might be able to as well. At this point the use of the evironment is something both sides desire to maximize in order to hide out or gain the advantage in a series of limited encounters - around which you can stage many of the other aspects of and players in the dungeon.

 

[Joshua Randall]

In addition to what's been said in this thread, the vastly underrated Book of Challenges also has some good tips on using the environment to make things more, ehem, interesting for the PCs. I'm particularly fond of one encounter that takes place in an area of switch-back stairs plagued with intensely powerful winds.

My own mid-level (APL 7) group definitely enjoyed (heh) their adventures in a desert (heat/fatigue), especially when the building they were fighting in caught on fire (nothing like repeated DC 15 Reflex saves to keep things lively).

Obviously, you don't want to overdo it, but a dash of environmental challenge can turn a boring fight into something the players will talk about to their grandkids.

[ObFarSideReference] "Hey gramps! Tell us that story again - the one about being caught in a feeding frenzy off the Great Barrier Reef!" [/ObFarSideReference]