Saving throws are a coin toss?

[Sphyre]

Thus people claiming that "saving throws" are now a 50/50 coin toss are drawing the wrong conclusion mainly, to my eyes, based on the fact that WotC used the word "save". In my opinion, they should have used an entirely new word.

While I agree that the problem is that people are not understanding how the system works because they are making assumptions about it. (Anyone who was listening when WotC said "saving throws are still in, but they aren't the same thing they used to be"" knows to look at how it's changed roles.)

I don't think they chose the wrong word for it though.

Defenses - your ability to protect yourself from a harmful effect. If you're more defensive, you're more able to protect yourself from being effected from that harmful effect at all.

Saves - Your chance to "save" yourself from the ongoing harmful effects that you were subject to. You're trying to save yourself.

If anything I think the terminology better describes the function rather than worse. It's like martial powers being called exploits. After the initial off the wall, gut reaction "what are they crazy?" complaints, those that actually learn what the words mean, will note that the terminology is actually very descriptive of the action being done.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Oh, great! Now the archmage is going to have to years of minor actions just to babysit the kobold! When's he ever going to take an extended rest?

Or has invented a ritual (aka plot device) to bind the spell to a magic ring/gem/orb/MacGuffin, that sustains the spell without the compromising the archmage's concentration.

Instant plot.

Cheers, LT.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I suspect any REALLY long lasting ongoing effect will be tied into the 'Sustain' entry we see marking several powers.

That would suck butts.

The Archmage shouldn't have to keep concentrating just to keep your goblin baby sleeping soundly.

He should be able to wave a hand, send the thing to sleep for 100 years, and not have to think about it anymore, ever.

The End.

 

[physics_ninja]

I doubt that the save DC will scale with level since none of the higher level monsters that we have seen say anything about higher target numbers.

I suspect (but do not know) that the saving throw target number will be determined by tier. In other words;

Heroic DC = 10
Paragon DC = 15
Epic DC = 20

This means that a 30th level wizard casting sleep will get about 95% of those kobolds.

It also makes 10 a better choice than 11 and matches what the designers have said about how the game changes at each tier.

I would like to think that defenders would get ½ of their level as a bonus to saves (that seems intuitive and matches the unified mechanic), but I doubt that too since it, again, doesn’t match any of the higher level monsters we have seen.

 

[Mephistopheles]

That's not the saving throw, that's the duration determinant.

The "saving throw" is the attacker's roll vs. your Ref, Will, Fort, etc made when he attacks.

Then, once we know whether you've saved or not (just like in 3E), duration of effect needs to be determined. Instead of rolling a set amount in advance (d4+1 rounds, or whatever), it's made a little more unpredictable by rolling each round to see if it has ended yet.

Not quite. In the case of sleep at least the attacker's roll vs Ref/Will/Fort determines the extent to which you can be affected. If the attack roll is sufficient then you may be hit with the full effect of the spell IF you fail your saving throw. I think that will be a common structure for spells in 4E (everyone in AoE takes the partial effect for one or more rounds, and if you fail your first save you take the full effect for one or more rounds). So I think calling it a saving throw is still the right terminology to use even though it does double as a duration determinant.

 

[Benimoto]

Like fafhrd, I was somewhat skeptical of the mechanic, but thought it worked fine in the games that I played. It's true that it doesn't have a built-in way to handle power imbalances, aside from the initial to-hit roll, but on the other hand, that makes it fast and simple for the vast majority of combats, which feature relatively balanced fights.

I definitely liked it, because it avoided the "you suck forever" mechanic of many previous saving throw-based effects.

 

[Mephistopheles]

I doubt that the save DC will scale with level since none of the higher level monsters that we have seen say anything about higher target numbers.

I suspect (but do not know) that the saving throw target number will be determined by tier. In other words;

Heroic DC = 10
Paragon DC = 15
Epic DC = 20

This means that a 30th level wizard casting sleep will get about 95% of those kobolds.

It also makes 10 a better choice than 11 and matches what the designers have said about how the game changes at each tier.

I would like to think that defenders would get ½ of their level as a bonus to saves (that seems intuitive and matches the unified mechanic), but I doubt that too since it, again, doesn’t match any of the higher level monsters we have seen.

I think it more likely that the equivalent of DC in 4E is achieved with the Attack strength. So Sleep has and Attack of +5 vs. Will. There may be an equivalent to 3.5E Deep Slumber later in the Wizard career that is identical to Sleep except that it has an Attack of +10 vs. Will.

Low level powers will still retain some use at higher levels in that you'll get your partial effect off regardless, but to increase your chances of getting full effects to stick you need to use higher level powers.

 

[Kordeth]

I think it more likely that the equivalent of DC in 4E is achieved with the Attack strength. So Sleep has and Attack of +5 vs. Will. There may be an equivalent to 3.5E Deep Slumber later in the Wizard career that is identical to Sleep except that it has an Attack of +10 vs. Will.

I think that's covered automatically by the fact that you add +1/2 your level to all attacks. I don't think it necessitates a separate power later on.

 

[dungeon blaster]

might be nice if they called it a "recovery roll" instead of a save... less confusion and all.

 

[glass]

I think it more likely that the equivalent of DC in 4E is achieved with the Attack strength. So Sleep has and Attack of +5 vs. Will. There may be an equivalent to 3.5E Deep Slumber later in the Wizard career that is identical to Sleep except that it has an Attack of +10 vs. Will.

That +5 come from the DDXP Wizard character, right? Then it will scale up automatically as the wizard's level (and Int bonus) goes up...


glass.