Scary monks! [3.5]

[MarauderX]

This is my first 3eR PC, built off the default array. I may end up rolling or using a higher point-buy for stats. I'll find out when I find a chance to play and not DM

Half Orc Monk 1
Str 17 (15+2)
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 8 (10-2)
Wis 14
Cha 6 (8-2)

Attack:
Quarterstaff +3 (1d6+4)
Full Attack [flurry]:
Quartesstaff +1/+1 (1d6+4)

Feat: Power Attack

AC: 13
HP: 9
yikes! Hide behind the wizard for a few levels and you should be ok.

 

[jgsugden]

AC: 13
HP: 9
yikes! Hide behind the wizard for a few levels and you should be ok.

Or just tell the wizard to give you mage armor. AC 17

People make too much out of the low AC for monks. A low level monk can pick up some AC from magic items or spells very easily. By third level they should be able to easily afford to buy a wand of mage armor that the wizard can zap them with every once ina while. That'll last 'em until they can get their claws on some decent bracers of armor, ring of protection, dex gloves, periapts of wisdom, amulets of natural armor, etc ...

My HO monk had a base 15 AC and did just fine with limited spell boosting. By 10th level he had an AC of 30 with less than average levels of wealth.

 

[Gizzard]

AC: 13 HP:9

And why would you be better off being a Monk than a Fighter with this stat arrangement? I don't get it.

Or just tell the wizard to give you mage armor. AC 17

Yeah, sure. The Wizard has how many first level spells to throw around? "Hmm, should I Sleep like 6 Orcs or should I give doofus over here some Mage Armor? Let me think."

By the time it makes sense for the Wizard to give the Monk boosts everyone else is closer to AC 22 than AC 17. And they're claiming all the better buffs like Bulls Strengths etc since they are more effective Fighters in the first place. Again, "Hmm, a Bull's Strength for doofus and his d6 of damage or put it on the Fighter with all his Focus feats and a d10 weapon. Let me think."

This all changes at high level, but to get to high level you have to survive low level.

 

[jgsugden]

Yeah, sure. The Wizard has how many first level spells to throw around? "Hmm, should I Sleep like 6 Orcs or should I give doofus over here some Mage Armor? Let me think."

This all changes at high level, but to get to high level you have to survive low level.

I played a HO monk from 1st to 13th level (NOTE: monks may be great wizard killers, but that does not mean they are immune to disintegrate.) The party was my monk, a dwarven fighter, a dwarven cleric and a human wizard. At low levels (2 to 7) the wizard cast mage armor on him using a wand of mage armor that my monk bought. By the time it ran out (7th level), he had replaced it with decent bracers (+3), a ring of protection (+1), a periapt of wisdom (+2 to wis, +1 to AC) and an amulet of natural armor (+1). He was also getting a dex boosting spell from the wizard, but that will not be as easy in 3.5. He upgraded the equpment by 10th so that his regular AC was 30.

Level 1 AC 15
Level 2 AC 19 (mage armor)
Level 3 AC 19 (mage armor)
Level 4 AC 21 (mage armor, natural armor, delfection)
Level 5 AC 21 (mage armor, natural armor, delfection)
Level 6 AC 24 (mage armor, natural armor, deflection, wisdom, dex)
Level 7 AC 25 (mage armor, natural armor, deflection, wisdom, dex)
Etc ....

Was he a match for the party fighter? No, not in a head on fight. That wasn't his job. But he often had the most glory in a large battle as he moved around enemies and tumbled up to the big baddie, stunned him / killed him and then tumbled back out to get healed. The monk serves a different purpose than the fighter. He isn't meant to be a pure war machine. Primarily, he scouts, takes on tactical foes and opposes wizards.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've found D20 Modern to be so much more flexible than DnD.

Why not use the D20 Modern martial arts feats? Give 'em to a fighter, and now you have a reasonable martial artist.

 

[Gizzard]

At low levels (2 to 7) the wizard cast mage armor on him using a wand of mage armor that my monk bought.

This is fair enough; as a matter of fact it's very clear what this ability is costing the Monk - 750G - as opposed to saying "Aw, just get the Wizard to cast the spell on you." The Wand is essentially an equipment item for the Monk if you do this. It's a fairly efficient usage, but I'd say being a Fighter and buying a Chain Shirt is simpler way to get +4. ;-)

(For reference, I've played a Monk from 1st to 6th. That game is on hiatus right now, but at 6th the Monk started to look like he might stop sucking. Haven't get to play him to find out. As for items, it sounds like your DM is a bit more liberal than ours. At 6th my prize posessions are a Cloak of Protection +1 and a +2 Kama. I spent my first wad of cash on a Masterwork Nunchaku, which was immediately eaten by an Ooze. :-/ The Wand would have been much better.)

Primarily, he scouts, takes on tactical foes and opposes wizards.

A Half-Orc can scout since he has Darkvision. This is a point thats often overlooked when talking about Monks - that certain races are not effective scouts because they can't see in the dark.

As for tactical foes; as the Monk gets over 50' in speed he can take on speedy foes. Unfortunately he is immediately set back to square zero when people begin to Fly. He can always Flank people and do other "tactical" things, but as my party said, "Why not just be a Fighter and kill the Ogre yourself rather than Flanking it to help me kill it better?"

Opposing Wizards I agree on, though this ability is much much better at high levels than low levels.

--

Anyway, back on target. I am looking forward to the 3.5E Monk, especially the changes in Ki Strike at low levels. I think Wizards tried to address the major complaints made by Monk players, hopefully the new Monk will be more in line with the power level of the main 4 classes.

 

[Angcuru]

Monks kick ass. Expecially once you get to the higher levels. It gets to the point where a lot of chars go for high dex over armor, and monks really shine at that point. A monk with Bracers of armor will of course have a higher AC than a fighter of equal level, as well as greater damage potential and attack rate, then there's the I AM a weapon situation. The only way to disarm a monk is to turn him into a quadruple amputee, which is REALLY hard to do in combat. Yep. Monks rule.

 

[ForceUser]

A monk with Bracers of armor will of course have a higher AC than a fighter of equal level, as well as greater damage potential and attack rate...

I beg to differ. Monks are groovy but they don't out-fighter the fighter.

Off the top of my head...

10th-level Monk
Bracers of Armor +2
Dex 16
Wis 16
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
+2 level bonus

AC 22

10th-level Fighter
Full Plate Armor +2
3.5 Tower Shield +2
Ring of Protection +2

AC 28

Reasonable gear and stats assuming stat buff items, I think. It's important to note that the monk will have the superior touch AC, though.

Damage-wise the fighter is superior as well, because he's going to hit more often for more damage. Continuing the comparison of the typical 25-point buy 10th-level monk and fighter, we find the following...

10th-level Monk attacks
BAB +7/+7/+2
Str 14
+2 Quarterstaff
Weapon Focus (unarmed attack)

TOTAL ATTACKS: +12/+12/+7
TOTAL DAMAGE: 1d6+4 per hit with staff (average 8), or 1d10+2 (average 7) bare knuckle but at -2 to attack

10th-level Fighter attacks
BAB +10/+5
Str 18
+2 Battleaxe
Weapon Focus (battleaxe)
Weapon Specialization (battleaxe)
Improved Critical (battleaxe)

TOTAL ATTACKS: +17/+12
TOTAL DAMAGE: 1d8+8 per hit (average 13), but threatens on a 19 or 20 at x3, plus Power Attack, plus Cleave, plus Great Cleave, etc.

I agree, monks rock, but not for the reasons you cite. Monks hit less often than fighters, and on average for less damage. Flurry makes up for this in part, but the fighter still edges the monk out, as he should. Monks excel as secondary combatants, but they must leave the tanking to the tanks.

[edit: I rawk at maf.]

 

[Fiendish Dire Weasel]

The changes made to the Monks ability to avoid damage reduction are very nice. But while they took the effort make classes less or no longer "front loaded" they didn't seem to do a lot to keep a monk from being "back loaded". Monks are a cool class once you get 'em up past 10th level and not to bad from 6-9, its the first 5 levels that seem a bit questionable to me.

 

[rounser]

Sundering....won't the monk get dirty looks from the other PCs if he or she keeps sundering potential loot?