Science Fiction vs. Science Fantasy

[Super Pony]

A lot of stories or settings can flip from one side to the other within the space of a paragraph. It's the razor's edge between "science!" as explanation and "mysteriousness!" as a foundation.

A zero g knife fight will hit my brain as science fiction, but a knife fight where the combatants are wishing themselves through open space with happy thoughts (Star Wars here)? That comes off as fantasy. A super intelligent post-human creating a wormhole nexus on earth is fairly science fiction...that same dude using his magic to fight off chaos sorcerers and his turn-cloak clone of son (WH40k here)? Well that's fantasy. A ship's crew trying to invert a reaction process to vent a certain type of particle stream at an on-rushing astronomical event? Science fiction. That same crew being teleported from one end of space to the other by a magical trickster (Star Trek)? Well that's pretty fantastical.

Fundamentally I think all science fiction HAS to have a bit of fantasy in it...otherwise it'd just be fiction, using current known science to support a story about man vs self, man vs man, man vs ...etc. However, the degree that various offerings of science fiction seem more SCIENCE fiction or science FICTION depends on the individual reading/playing/viewing. Mary Shelly's Frankenstein was science fiction. Does it still hold up as such? Should we now put it into occult fantasy, or horror fiction instead? Is Walking Dead science fiction or science fantasy? What about Battlestar Galactica? To me there are elements of classic fantasy in all of these...as well as some "science" that lumps them into the sci-fi family.

TLDR; To me Science Fiction is the genre, Science Fantasy is the opinion of the reader/viewer/player.

 

[jonesy]

Mary Shelly's Frankenstein was science fiction. Does it still hold up as such? Should we now put it into occult fantasy, or horror fiction instead? Is Walking Dead science fiction or science fantasy? What about Battlestar Galactica? To me there are elements of classic fantasy in all of these...as well as some "science" that lumps them into the sci-fi family.

That's the same thing with musical genres. People complaining how "That isn't metal." "But is used to be metal." "It made metal. It will always be metal."

 

[Mallus]

But as to the idea of themes, I don't see any clear distinction there. A lot of horror fiction blends this distinction; Lovecraft has a lot of very scientific ideas but also magic and religion and monsters.

My fault -- I wasn't being clear. What I should have said that certain themes are more strongly associated w/science fiction and others w/fantasy and science fantasy, regardless of whatever tropes/conventions are in play, and this difference in themes (or approach to themes) helps differentiate the (sub)genres.

For example, one classic SF theme is the societal effects of scientific/technology change. I've heard people give this as the #1 characteristic of SF literature. This is a less common theme in fantasy/science fantasy. The rapid changes in fantasy tend more towards the "oh noes, the Dark One has risen again" variety.

There are also examples of fantasy, that seem very much like science fiction thematically (The Song of Ice and Fire asthetic feels very sci-fi to me) and science fiction that is fantasy with aliens (Star Wars).

You're right, there are plenty of interesting works that are essentially fantasy written in a SF mode (like Star Wars), or vice-versa (Book of the New Sun, the earlier Darkover novels).

Out of curiosity, what do you find SF-inal about ASoIaF? They seem pretty squarely historical fantasy to me.

It's also been my observation that science fiction stories that go on for a long time often become more and more fantastical and less grounded as they progress (see Lost, BSG, and others).

I find the overt religiosity of nBSG places it more firmly in the "science fiction" camp. Most fantasy I've read doesn't do much more with religious concepts then state: gods are real, some are you friend, some are your enemy. I find science fiction has a more more interesting history dealing with religion (cf. Dune, Solaris), and nBSG fits right in.

Mary Shelly's Frankenstein was science fiction. Does it still hold up as such? Should we now put it into occult fantasy, or horror fiction instead?

Yeah -- if your definition of science fiction means we have to reclassify a book every couple of years, then you probably needs a more definitive definition!

 

[jonesy]

Yeah -- if your definition of science fiction means we have to reclassify a book every couple of years, then you probably needs a more definitive definition!

There's a subgenre of science fiction that frustrates both the writers and readers. Hard science fiction.

If you wait long enough chances are excellent that the perfectly hard science story you wrote way back then has now turned into fantasy. The number of stories that never stopped being hard science (or even better, predicted something while doing it) is really small.

 

[Umbran]

Mary Shelly's Frankenstein was science fiction. Does it still hold up as such?

Yes, I think so. I mean, we *do* bring people back to life with a shock of electricity, right? We *do* still seek ways to graft body parts together, don't we? The idea of immortality through brain transplant into a new body is still not lost to us. Yes, I think this qualifies a science fiction.

Should we now put it into occult fantasy, or horror fiction instead?

There's nothing at all "occult" about the text. And, in fact, if you've read it, you'll note it also isn't a horror novel. It is a book about what happens when a scientist sees what he *can* do, without considering whether he not he *should* do it. The focus is as much or more on Victor Frankenstein as it is on the monster.

Is Walking Dead science fiction or science fantasy?

Neither. It is Horror.

 

[Tonguez]

John Carters of Mars - Science fantasy
Tarzan - science fiction?

Is the Shanara series science fantasy or just fantasy?

 

[jonesy]

Tarzan - science fiction?

Are you thinking of Pellucidar?

 

[Tonguez]

Are you thinking of Pellucidar?

Pellucidar
Tarzan and the Antmen - people only 1/4 human height
Tarzan and the Lion Man has talking Gorillas
Tarzan and the Jewels of Opar features the degenerate beastman of Opar

The Mangani are a intelligent ape species and in Tarzans Quest he becomes Immortal

 

[Umbran]

Is the Shanara series science fantasy or just fantasy?

Neither, really. Tarzan is pulp adventure. Not everything needs with a couple of fantastic elements has to be wedged into one of the two camps.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't think of genres as hard edged things, I think of them in terms of Venn diagrams.

Thinking that way, I find few genre fantasy/Sci-Fi/horror stories are pure.