D&D 5E Second Edition Reverse Engineered D&D 5e race design and over 40 example races

[Parmandur]

Ok, so I've run the numbers over the current system, and (assuming a -ASI is only -1, not -2 pt) I have the following numbers:

[SBLOCK="Race Points"]Aasimar: 12.5 (Assuming each transformation is a 2nd level spell, and stating their heal as a damaging power taken from the average damage at average level (10.5 at 11))

Firbolg: 9.25 (2 noncombat spells as same level, then hidden step as a noncombat spell (invis) two levels early)

Kenku: 12 - The most balanced race in the book

Lizardfolk: 20 (Hungry jaws as damaging power for average damage and counting thp as damage, assuming a con mod of +3)

Tabaxi: 15.25 (That speed boost is 60 feet half the time, assuming no ability bumping speed, but if you have an ability to dash as bonus action that is a speed of 60 + 60 + 60 in one turn then 0 the next (average 90), which once your speed increases, shoots ahead of not having this ability)

Triton: 20 (3 combat spells at same level wizard gets is 12 alone)

Bugbear: 9.75 (assuming no weight on PB, treating it as reach 10 1/2 of the time)

Goblin: 13.75 (Fury of the Small - Damaging power, same calculation as Aasimar heal but 1/short. range is wonky (literally any range), so gave them benefit of the doubt and said range 5 feet).

Hobgoblin: 18.5 (Save face as a combat spell equal level, 1/short or long rest)

Kobold: 4 (Grovel, Cower & Beg same as Save face)

Orc: 8 (again, negative ASI taken as -1 point, not -2 points, same as kobold)

Yuan-ti Pureblood: 28.5 (still)[/SBLOCK]
This is an average of 14.3 points under Coronoides' system. Bugbear, Firbolg, and Orc are all under by 2.25, 2.75, and 4 respectively, so I'd estimate that Powerful build is 2.5, and estimate that a negative ability score is worth nothing, which would bring Bugbear up to 12.25, Firbolg up to 11.75, Orc up to 11.5, and Kobold up to 5. Grovel, Cower & Beg may be worth more than I gave it credit for.

Yeah, I think re-evaluation of the Goliath might correct those other Powerful Build races, and Aggresive might need a rethink, too.

Grovel, Cower and Beg is pretty huge, actually, as is Pack Tactics.

We have doubled the number of base race examples, so the model has more evidence to work from..

Magic Resistance is probably overrated, though it is the best ability the YuanTi have.

 

[Duan'duliir]

EDIT: Also, I'm starting to notice what seem like errors in your point-buy system. For example, on the traits table you value Fiendish Blessing at 1 point.

[SECTION]Fiendish Blessing: The AC of the cambion includes its Charisma bonus (+3)[/SECTION]

Whereas a Natural Armor of 13 + DEX you value at 6 points.

Clearly there is a major discrepancy.

Fiendish Blessing is based on Unarmoured Defence, actually. Although it is still underpriced. I noticed this stuff about this time last year, when the last thread for this was still active.

I was about to say "Do the maths on Elf Weapon Training, and you'll see that that is out too." but then I realised I was still using the excel sheet with 22, not 27, and checking 27, it has been fixed.

So sidenote, my analysis from yesterday might be out. I'll redo them soon

 

[Coronoides]

Hi all
It is a joy to see you all engaging with this!
The observation regarding possible asymmetric pricing of negative attributes is interesting.
As always make whatever changes you want for use at your own table.
I'm still waiting on my copy of the new book and breathing space in my paid work (which I enjoy too) before pondering my next move on this.

 

[Coronoides]

...oh yeh and look at the evidence codes and star rating. Everyone talks points but few mention certainty of the prices/ quality of the evidence
ok bed time here.

 

[Parmandur]

...oh yeh and look at the evidence codes and star rating. Everyone talks points but few mention certainty of the prices/ quality of the evidence
ok bed time here.

For sure, that's where I think Volos Guide is a treasure trove, new evidence!

 

[Coronoides]

For example people have mentioned the Goliath. We are pretty certain of the STR, CON, and Athletics prices (P).
This leaves 4 pt that really could go anywhere among Stones Endurance, Powerful Build and Mountain born.
Note though if you change powerful build that will have a knock on effect changing prices for all Large and larger example races.

EDIT: In my group powerful build hasn't been super useful. In the current party the bear carries all the damn copper pieces they find and the pixies gems. Everyone ends up hauling out the same value of treasure.

 

[Xeviat]

I'm confused. You start off saying that all races should be balanced (I agree), and thus all WotC races should be balanced (they should, but they aren't). Then you finagle the numbers so that they all come to a balanced number, but then those numbers don't work out when wotsee makes more races.

We do have a balance mechanism we can look at: one feat equals +2 to an ability score. But you weigh a feat at first level differently than you weigh +2 to an ability score.

I'm all for calculators. I love them. I played extensively with calculators for weapons, armor, races, and classes in 3E. I played Mutants and Masterminds for fantasy games and purposely designed races to be 10 point packages. I'm fully down with them, but I think your calculator may start with some misplaced assumptions.

Massage things so the VGtM races are a little more balanced, unless something really stands out as unbalanced. Remember that many class abilities are balanced against a feat or two. Remember that Magic Initiate gives 2 cantrips and 1 spell per day. That Weapon Master gives 4 weapons, skilled gives 3 skills, and armor proficiencies give the armor and +1 to a stat.

I'll take a look at version two and let you know what I think of the values.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Quickleaf]

[MENTION=6801453]Coronoides[/MENTION] Here's some food for thought about giving a race the ability to fly...

Apparently, Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide on p. 118 grants tieflings alternate racial traits. One of these, a proposed replacement for Infernal Legacy, is a fly speed of 30 feet.

You evaluate winged flight at 1st level as being worth 10.75 pts.

And you evaluate Infernal Legacy as being worth 6 pts altogether.

So it seems like WOTC doesn't value the ability to fly as much as you have?

 

[gweinel]

[MENTION=6801453]Coronoides[/MENTION] you did really a great job. I suppose it needs tinkering but surely you have laid down a method of evaluating the abilities of the races/classes/monsters of dnd.

However, I skimmed the appendix and didn't find the expertise ability (double proficiency bonus of a skill). What do you think is the price of an ability like that? I am most inclined to say 1pt but i would like to hear your opinion.

 

[smbakeresq]

For example people have mentioned the Goliath. We are pretty certain of the STR, CON, and Athletics prices (P).
This leaves 4 pt that really could go anywhere among Stones Endurance, Powerful Build and Mountain born.
Note though if you change powerful build that will have a knock on effect changing prices for all Large and larger example races.

EDIT: In my group powerful build hasn't been super useful. In the current party the bear carries all the damn copper pieces they find and the pixies gems. Everyone ends up hauling out the same value of treasure.

I changed powerful build, with powerful build you can use weapons that are larger, they add 1 die size to the weapons but count as "regular size weapons for you. The weapons length is %50 more, the weight is twice as much. For example Goliath, a longsword sized for him does 1d10, or 1d12 in both hands. A goliath can use goliath sized shortswords, they do 1d8 damage but count as "light" weapons. Greatsword is 2d8, as is Maul. Great axe is a small issue, but there is d16 out there. Or use d8 and and an odd/even roll, odd is 1-8, even is 9-16. Yes is adds to +1 to average damage, but it seems appropriate and its easy balanced and it makes the race "pop."