Shapeshift druid vs regular druid

[Cactot]

I was looking at the phb2 under the alternate class abilities, and was checking out the druids alternative to wildshape. It seems to me that the alternate ability is far and away worse at every level past 7th, and only nominally better (if at all) before then.

Shapeshift benefits:
Unlimited uses/day
Swift action
Get it at first level

Shapeshift disadvantages:
In all but the highest point buy systems, your shapeshifted stats will be lower than a regular wildshape
MAD, Now druids need high str/con/dex to be effective in combat
Limited selection of shapes
Impossible to cast while shapeshifted
Doesnt qualify you for wildshape req prestige classes
Warshaper (4) is nearly mandatory to make it an effective fighting shape
No animal companion

Wildshape benefits:
Much larger selection of shapes, even more with prestige classes
Lots of prestige classes
Can cast spells in shape w/natural spell
No need for base str/dex/con to be very high
You get a animal companion


Wildshape Disadvantages:
Have to wait till lvl ~7 to be able to use for entire day
Dont get first shape till lvl 5
Less shapes per day without prestige classes


Questionable:
Do "wild" enchanted armor or wild clasped items work combined with shapeshift? If not, it would be nearly impossible to have an effective melee class at high levels, your max AC would be 10+16+ base dex unless your multi classed with monk, and you would not get that AC until lvl 16. Ac30 at lvl 16 isnt exactly impressive, and you can only get that with a base 18 Dex. At that same level your max damage would be 2d6+16 x 2 (with a base 18 str), which isnt horrible, but not really that impressive at that level.



About the only reason i could see for using the shapeshift option, is if you only plan to go to lvl 5 for utility shapes, then focus on something other than wildshape or druid spells.

Thoughts?

 

[szilard]

I think the Shapeshift option is poorly thought out.

The ability bonuses are all enhancement bonuses. This eliminates the usefulness of many buffs - which is particularly nasty since none of your magical equipment works.

The save bonuses are all enhancement bonuses. Huh? Since when could you even get an enhancement bonus to a save? Does that stack with the bonus to the save you might get with an enhancement bonus to the ability score?

What is the point of the Forest Avenger and Elemental Fury forms if you get none of the benefits of a plant creature or elemental? You can assume a Water Elemental Fury form, but you don't even get a swim speed. You can be a plant-like creature and still be susceptible to things that target humanoids. That's just silly.

There is no aquatic form. Even the 'water elemental' form lacks a swim speed.

-Stuart

 

[Cactot]

I think the Shapeshift option is poorly thought out.

-Stuart

QFT

This seems to be an example of a pretty common problem, AFAICS. They introduce new material, or re-define old material in what seems to be an attempt to make them difficult to abuse by the powergamer sort, and in effect just end up gimping it to the point that it is often absurdly weak/useless to the point where the only way anyone could effectively play it would be to spend hours working on optimizing it. Why can they not rely on Rule 1, and count on the DM tossing out any stupid or gamebreaking combos? To make things worse, in the same book where they bring out neutered things that people might otherwise actually use, they will introduce some feat/ability/whatever that will be poorly thought out in an awesomely broken and abusable way.

 

[Drowbane]

About the only reason i could see for using the shapeshift option, is if you only plan to go to lvl 5 for utility shapes, then focus on something other than wildshape or druid spells.

Thoughts?

About the only reason I can see for Shapeshift variant is for those DMs who are hellbent on nerfing the Druid.

 

[ForceUser]

About the only reason I can see for Shapeshift variant is for those DMs who are hellbent on nerfing the Druid.

That would be me. I think shapeshift is fantastic, and even as a player I prefer it for its simplicity and uniformity. I can't wait to make a shapeshift druid/rogue in some future campaign. I like that shapeshift is not a headache and sets realistic boundaries on the "wildshape" ability. Wildshape is as broken as polymorph, and I'm glad WotC finally addressed the problem. When I played my druid it was a total pain in the arse leafing through multiple sourcebooks looking for that "power animal" I could wildshape into. And arguing with my DM over which items stayed and which disappeared when my character wildshaped. Through multiple iterations of wildshape--including the current one--I have not been satisfied with it. It's just too complex, too ripe for abuse. No offense, Drowbane, but if you're unhappy with shapeshift, that only reinforces my belief that it is balanced.

In any case, a real fix to wildshape was long overdue. Going forward IMC, shapeshift replaces wildshape for all druids (though I won't force the current wildshape druid to switch).

 

[szilard]

In any case, a real fix to wildshape was long overdue.

It still is.

I think Wild Shape is too good, but Shapeshift simply makes no sense to me. At first, it looked really cool, but the longer I considered it, the more faults I found.

My solution would have been to limit Wild Shape to a set group of forms and to apply physical modifiers as per racial modifiers (an animal with a Strength of 16 gives a +6 Strength bonus) so that Druids couldn't minimize their natural physical stats and still be extraordinary combat monsters.

-Stuart

 

[Tetsubo]

That would be me. I think shapeshift is fantastic, and even as a player I prefer it for its simplicity and uniformity. I can't wait to make a shapeshift druid/rogue in some future campaign. I like that shapeshift is not a headache and sets realistic boundaries on the "wildshape" ability. Wildshape is as broken as polymorph, and I'm glad WotC finally addressed the problem. When I played my druid it was a total pain in the arse leafing through multiple sourcebooks looking for that "power animal" I could wildshape into. And arguing with my DM over which items stayed and which disappeared when my character wildshaped. Through multiple iterations of wildshape--including the current one--I have not been satisfied with it. It's just too complex, too ripe for abuse. No offense, Drowbane, but if you're unhappy with shapeshift, that only reinforces my belief that it is balanced.

In any case, a real fix to wildshape was long overdue. Going forward IMC, shapeshift replaces wildshape for all druids (though I won't force the current wildshape druid to switch).

I also really like the shapeshift ability. I would play such a Druid in a heart beat. Use the Improved Natural Attack feat and have an arcane spellcaster put an Enlarge Person on you... 2d6 per attack isn't bad... especially when you take into account the Strength bonus you get with the new form...

 

[Shayuri]

It's worth pointing out, I think, that Shapeshift/Wildshape/Whatever are ancilliary powers for druids. A druid is, by and large, meant to be a primary spellcaster class. The ability to take animal forms is meant to help them gain some versatility and ability in direct combat...but not to the point where they can confidently charge up to the front line and tank it out with the fighter or other warrior class.

That's my take on it, anyway. I played a druid from level 5 to 13 in a game, and I found that Wildshape...with some clever item making...allowed me to do exactly that. A brown bear with AC 27 and magic claws does nasty nasty damage, and can take hits as well as a fighter of the same level. AND cast spells. AND has an animal companion.

Granted, clerics can tank too. And cast spells. But the merits of clerics aren't really what we're addressing here.

Shapeshift gives druids a fun (I especially like how the visual form isn't fixed, which offers RP potential) ability that gives them a little boost in melee, without making them effective replacements for a fullbore fighter. Certainly someone who closes to melee with a druid might get a nasty surprise if he was expecting a soft and meaty spellcaster.

And admittedly, I haven't played Shapeshift much yet...so my opinion my wane. I'm especially tempted to let Natural Spell work in Shapeshift forms, so druids always have access to their primary function. This wouldn't be such a problem, since Shapeshift forms aren't as powerful, by and large, as wildshapes. Adding an aquatic form and/or elemental movement styles (fly, earth meld, swim, etc) are also attractive, non-overpowering ideas.

But I'll have to play it first.

 

[ForceUser]

I also really like the shapeshift ability. I would play such a Druid in a heart beat. Use the Improved Natural Attack feat and have an arcane spellcaster put an Enlarge Person on you... 2d6 per attack isn't bad... especially when you take into account the Strength bonus you get with the new form...

Yeah. The lack of access to Natural Spell is not much of an issue to a druid who can shift back and forth as a swift action, and the fact that your type remains humanoid is huge when thinking of enlarge person and other such spells. You still get to powergame a shapeshift druid, it's just that now it's uniform. I don't think that the lack of magic item access while shapeshifted is much of an issue, again considering that it's easy enough to shift back if you want access to those powers. Now the druid must decide each round--morph into a fighting form, or stay humanoid and cast spells? I like that polarity. And a generous DM will allow any druid PrC that requires wildshape to sub in shapeshift instead. I do. I think that a shapeshift druid/nature's warrior is righteously cool, and actually a smoother transition than a standard druid.

 

[Patlin]

I agree with the criticisms, but the shapeshift option is *nearly* brilliant. It needs a bit more work, but I'd like to see it again after they works the kinks out. Maybe add an aquatic form, for example, some rules for how it effects entry into prestige classes, and some rules for variant wild feats to supplement the ability. It could be very interesting if someone devotes a bit more time.