Should a DM change an official NPC?

[IceBear]

As for the extra powers bit, it is a good idea to be fairly consistent with NPCs. Although you can throw in a few surprises, such as the NPC getting a device that allows the use of time stop. (Or for that matter, having an invisible ally cast time stop or read a scroll and arrange to teleport the "Big Bad" when the party comes out of time stop. This can have the party wonder if their enemy has unrevealed powers and unnerve them. Of course, if they hear a rumor that their foe is now the ally of a powerful wizard, they may have a good idea where that time stop came from.)

Well, that's what I meant by I can think of explanations for it I was just trying to allay Greymarch's fears that we weren't advocating making huge changes to NPCs without there being a good reason

Honestly, Greymarch's original problem was with Orcus in BoVD being non-divine while official FR cannon states that he is divine. Why his group cannot just mkae him divine (when Monte included guidelines for doing so) is what has me so stunned

IceBear

 

[Florin]

I think the problem that Greymarch had was that he did not define his "official" campaign. If he had told us what constitutes a campaign he might have received a better response.
But the basic premise he began with, "only my way is the official way" and the arguments he gave to support it, "only WOTC publishes official canon" really don't tell us anything.
I play FR, and I love the realms. But I think the worst thing to happen to them were the novels. I have yet to read one of them that I did not think was a pile of some extraneous material that should not be mentioned in polite conversation. I ignore the NPCs because my players (and me as a player when someone else runs it) have no business sticking their nose into what the official NPCs might be doing. (and vice-versa)...

Actually, he used the term "authentic" which has slightly different connotations. Apparently he believes that you aren't really playing the Forgotten Realms unless you only use the core rulebooks, the books put out for the setting, and other materials put out by WotC (like the ELH or BoVD). If you use anything else, or alter anything in those books, you are no longer playing the Realms but a homebrew campaign, and his group cannot accept homebrew campaigns.

At least that's how I read it. Now, as to why he feels that way, we really have no idea.

 

[lbcadden]

yes!!! it's your game.

 

[MerakSpielman]

Whether or not he's been trolling or inflamitory, surely you can't all be THAT surprised that somebody actually plays FR just like it's published...

 

[IceBear]

No, it's not that surprising. What IS surprising is that under NO circumstances can anything be changed from cannon. Specifically, he wants to change the stats of Orcus from what's in the BoVD to something more in keeping with what they want. Orcus - a powerful demon prince that the PCs will probably never encounter directly, and that he doesn't like the stats of, but he CANNOT change the stats because of his blind adherence to all that is published by WotC is sacred and everything else is utter garbage. That's what I find surprising.

IceBear

 

[Sinistar]

True, that is a difference. "Authentic" is much more qualitative than "official". Maybe subconsciously I was trying to make sense of it.
In most games I know of (and in my own FR campaign) I try my best to cut DOWN on the metagaming, not build it up to a science.
Even as a fan, I have a hard time understanding what he is comparing it to. Does he think that the people at WOTC play the FR and THEN write the modules? Does he think the designers just finished a campaign against the drow and thought it was pretty good so they published it as the City of the Spider Queen? That then they release it so the players can have the same experience?
"Authentic" is even a worse word than "official" now that I think about it. Authentic compared to what. It is actually something that cuts beyond stats and books used. It would have to be a certain feel to the game that makes it seem like a real event. Like they are re-enactors of the FR rather than gamers. But that can't be what he was talking about, because by definition that is a role playing aspect not a mechanical/stat based aspect. I can see wanting to have Sally the barmaid be the same as she was the last time you encountered her. Heck, I can even see having Drizzle use the same combo attack each time, but for a FLAVOR reason, not a stat reason. I mean stat wise there is no reason why Drizzle can't switch from 2 weapon fighting to using the AB AB Up Up routine to give him the flaming upper cut. But as a ROLE PLAYING issue I can see limiting it.
But if it is Role playing, then the players should know nothing of the stats, or maybe more specifically not CARE what the stats are.

I must be completely off, I wish he would continue trolling here and explain. Maybe I can hunt him down on the WOTC board and ask for an explanation...

 

[Danyon Dehlmari]

Oops... Wife's account...

 

[Bendris Noulg]

To summarize, I have my own homebrew and I will use any source book that has elements to make it more enjoyable...Also, I would be remiss if I did not mention that some things that were core in 2nd Edition are now in FR products. Some of the creatures in the Monsters of Faerun, and deities in Faiths and Avatars were formerly not included in FR products. However, I feel free to use any creature that I wish from Monsters of Faerun.

Indeed! And it has, in fact, always been this way. Every book I own, from all three editions, in some regard mentions that a DM is free to use all or some, to adapt, modify and outright change, the material within. At current, I have the only setting in print (well, partially in print) that is officially permitted by WotC to make use of the material in all of the splat books, FRCS, Magic of Faerun, and Oriental Adventures. But I can honestly state that I intend to use less than 10% of the content from any of these sources, because it's that 10% that fits. This setting also incorporates material from S&S Studios, Mongoose, Titan Games, Green Ronin, Mystic Eye Games, Malhavoc Press, Bastion Press and AEG (as well as others...). And the list continues to grow as various Feats, Spells and Monsters come into print that fit the world and its themes.

I wish that Greymarch would come back and tell us HOW he runs an "Official" FR campaign...I think the problem that Greymarch had was that he did not define his "official" campaign. If he had told us what constitutes a campaign he might have received a better response.
But the basic premise he began with, "only my way is the official way" and the arguments he gave to support it, "only WOTC publishes official canon" really don't tell us anything.

What I want to know is, how does his stance stand up to WotC's "official" statements within the setting itself?

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 6:
It's a setting for your adventures, a background for your characters and plots, a set off suggestions for how you could play a continuing game, and a source of ideas for how to develop a world of your own.

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, page 288:
This chapter is aimed at Dungeon Masters, providing tips and and rules for creating your own Forgotten Realms campaign and running Dungeons & Dragons adventures in the world of Toril.

I think those two statements are rather neat. After all, if this is in the FRCS, than isn't doing just that authentic enough?

 

[rounser]

Heh. Did I say anything about "most gamers" or "everyone?"

Well, technically, yes you did...you said it never hurt anybody's suspension of disbelief, although I'm guilty of not paying enough attention to the context. On second look I can see what you meant ("anybody" as applies to the set of most gamers you met who had no problem with it), but that's not how it initially came across to this reader.

I'll admit that I was probably viewing your words whilst looking for fault because I found the implications of "setting up of parameters for normality" based on your experiences objectionable, as they imply that having the "this is authentic FR" kind of suspension of disbelief fail for an individual because, for example, Elminster has been reworked (from what is taken for granted about him by those who know FR) to being that he is evil with assassin levels is somehow abnormal or unreasonable. I don't agree, because I can understand how an evil Elminster challenges all sorts of other assumptions about it being "default FR" that you're playing in.

But they are your experiences. I apologise for that skew interfering with my interpretation of your words.

So don't put words into my mouth, okay?

My post wasn't deliberate vindictiveness, but rather misinterpretation from a skewed perspective. I guess we're square, then.

 

[DM_Matt]

Silly Troll...he has gone into hiding....heeeeeeeeeere trolly-trolly-trolly-trolly...heeeeeeeeeeeere trolly....