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D&D 5E Should Next have been something completely new and made from scratch?

Dunnagin

First Post
It's kind of like saying "if you like apple pie, your friend likes beef stew, and another friend likes spices, then you all three should enjoy what we've mixed together."

*thumbs up*

Thanks

The other thing I was implying is that "Spicy" and "Beef Stew" are not, in themselves, "bad". They are just preferred tastes.

My reaction to various editions was based on my expectations, which were based on previous editions.

I can be sold on D&D Next if:

A) It doesn't deviate from my own personal expectations or tastes (which is unlikely, since they are trying to "mix tastes").

or

B) They deliver something which is easier to use, yet still reflects the original idea (mom's "improved" apple pie).

To get to B, they probably need to ignore "crowd feedback" and focus on actual skilled/clever/creative game design (a design which looks familiar, but is perhaps simpler and easier to use?)

That's my two cents anyway.
 

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Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
That's quite incorrect. If RPG gamers disliked change, then 3E would have failed!

We have to look to other reasons.
Gamers do dislike change.

However, that is tempered by the fact that they also want to play the best D&D possible and to see new stuff constantly. We loved 2e. It had its issues but we were willing to overlook them because the majority of play time was still fun. However, in order to keep things interesting we needed a constant influx of new material. We needed new spells, new classes, new kits, new adventures, new campaign worlds. Near the end those things all dried up. There was nothing new about the game at all. Which means all we did is see the flaws with the game day in and day out. To the point where my group had nearly fallen apart because we were almost sick of playing the same game with nothing new. Which is rather amusing given that nearly every book that had come out in the preceding years we didn't use any part of because they were too different for us and we didn't want that much change.

After a couple of years worth of nothing new being added to the game, the introduction of a new edition by a new company seemed like a godsend. After all, the promise was that it would fix the issues we had with 2e while simultaneously promising a new company with a fresh outlook. We knew the problems with 2e were deep enough that an addon book simply wouldn't be able to solve it. So, we played the new edition. I'm different from most people in that I love change. Even when it is bad change. I'd rather see things continue to change than stay the same. However, nearly half my group stopped playing when 3e came out. They played a couple of sessions and just couldn't get into the new edition of the game. It was too different, might as well go back to the old way of doing things. None of the changes made sense, they'd say. So, we just introduced new people who had never played 2e to join us. They loved it.

When 3.5e came out, there was equal grumbles. Why introduce a new editions of the game when the one we had was just fine. There were some small issues but why not errata it instead of replacing it with a new edition. It was a money grab, pure and simple, they'd say. They wanted us all to have to buy the same books over again, they'd say. However, almost everyone switched because it was close enough that people felt their old books would still be useful. They could still use their old PrCs from the 3.0 books with almost no changes. They embraced it because not much was different.

When 4e came out, however, unlike with the 2e to 3e change, books had come out as recently as a couple of months ago. They game was still being updated and was still being played. Most people didn't even play it enough yet to discover its flaws. Plus, there was more interconnectedness. Our group had planned to get together with some people from Fargo, ND every year to play D&D at the Peace Gardens in order to play Living Greyhawk. Suddenly our yearly get together was in jeopardy. Would all our friends switch to 4e? Would there be a reason to get together when things changed over to Living Forgotten Realms? Was this another money grab like 3.5e only a couple of years later? We all bought the bullet and bought entirely new books like 3 years ago. Did we have the money to keep doing this forever? Why would they change it so soon after they already changed it? Was 3.5e bad enough that it needed to be changed? All of this came up and more. This was long before anyone knew anything about 4e at all, it had just been announced and that's it. The key factor here was "Why did they have to go and change what didn't need changing?" No one(except maybe me) felt that 3.5e was played out yet. It wasn't time. Change needed to come slower.

When 4e actually came out, it was different enough that people who were already afraid of change saw how MUCH it had changed and immediately wrote it off and too much change too quickly. It might be able to evolve in that direction eventually. But all those changes all at once was too much for people and they certainly weren't going to pay for it. At least, that's what nearly all my friends who refused to play 4e said.

The key is that people hate change. They will accept change, but it needs to be slow. 10 years of playing the same game and it can begin to feel old and in need of refreshment. 3 years and people don't feel that change is a good thing. I think people will be more accepting of D&D Next than 4e because for many people it's been 8 years since the last change(3.5e to D&D Next since they skipped 4e) and the change is small enough that it's easier to accept.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
It's kind of like saying "if you like apple pie, your friend likes beef stew, and another friend likes spices, then you all three should enjoy what we've mixed together.
"
Except game rules aren't food. A rule that might be bad on its own might work well in context of other rules.

Although, if we're using the food metaphor, keep in mind some foods DO taste good mixed together. It's closer to saying "I like Apple Pie. My friend likes Rhubarb pie. An Apple Rhubarb pie might be good for both of us." Not everything when mixed together creates some horrible concoction. It's a matter of finding the right things to mix together.
 

While I agree that gamers aren't unwilling to accept change in general, I would point out that there wasn't a 3-year hiatus in D&D materials. Once WotC bought TSR, products started coming out again, including a set of 25th anniversary products that featured "Return to" various adventuring grounds and a bunch of Greyhawk publications. So I think there's a gap in your analysis. There were materials coming out before the 3e release, yet the market was still reasonably receptive to 3e and the edition + ongoing support from Paizo has had a pretty good run.

Point taken, although I was more referring more to new source-books, not so much adventures. After all, there's been a steady stream of adventures in Dungeon since the announcement of D&D Next (at least through December, anyway), and I don't think you'd find many saying they're still actively supporting 4E.

Nevertheless...

technically_correct.jpg
 

Dunnagin

First Post
Except game rules aren't food. A rule that might be bad on its own might work well in context of other rules.

Although, if we're using the food metaphor, keep in mind some foods DO taste good mixed together. It's closer to saying "I like Apple Pie. My friend likes Rhubarb pie. An Apple Rhubarb pie might be good for both of us." Not everything when mixed together creates some horrible concoction. It's a matter of finding the right things to mix together.

That, is exactly my point.

Some foods do taste good togehter, others do not.

A good chef (game designer) can discern this, and make a tasty dish.

But, what if the chef simply asks as many people as they can, "hey what food do you like"... then attempts to mix those foods together... what kind of meal do you get?

Each person is contributing a specific "taste" opinion... but the chef needs to keep an eye on the "entire mix".

In essence, I'm saying that "good design" in any medium, is rarely done by committee.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Point taken, although I was more referring more to new source-books, not so much adventures. After all, there's been a steady stream of adventures in Dungeon since the announcement of D&D Next (at least through December, anyway), and I don't think you'd find many saying they're still actively supporting 4E.

I think our standards may have changed over the years what really constitutes "supporting" an edition. Does publishing adventures count as support? Does doing so in Dungeon? If so for the latter, then no edition of D&D has ever been unsupported. Is there are a difference between publishing adventures in Dungeon and publishing them as stand-alone modules? If so, then 2e was supported right up to 3e, and 4e pretty much is not now.

In my opinion, module publications (and campaign books) should certainly count as support for the game. They represent a significant investment. Publication of souce books (whatever you consider them to be) shouldn't be necessary.
 

Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
I think our standards may have changed over the years what really constitutes "supporting" an edition. Does publishing adventures count as support? Does doing so in Dungeon? If so for the latter, then no edition of D&D has ever been unsupported. Is there are a difference between publishing adventures in Dungeon and publishing them as stand-alone modules? If so, then 2e was supported right up to 3e, and 4e pretty much is not now.

In my opinion, module publications (and campaign books) should certainly count as support for the game. They represent a significant investment. Publication of souce books (whatever you consider them to be) shouldn't be necessary.
I don't know about that. If you are running your own homebrew world with entirely adventures written by yourself then only adventures being published means there is still no support at all for your game. Which applied to a lot of people.

To us, the reason we kept playing the game is a constant influx of new options. Of course, when 2e ended I was much, much younger. We'd start up a new D&D game every 2 days and play for only a session or two just so that we could try playing using a new kit or using a new supplement that came out. Or at least something new in a supplement we already had. Near the end we had pretty much seen everything that was in every book we owned played by someone. Our reason to constantly start new games dried up and with it our enthusiasm for playing the game in general.

Then again, my friends didn't much care what adventure we were going on. It was more about seeing what cool powers they could use today to totally obliterate the enemies without taking damage.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I don't know about that. If you are running your own homebrew world with entirely adventures written by yourself then only adventures being published means there is still no support at all for your game. Which applied to a lot of people.

And if I'm not using sourcebooks and that's all they're putting out, then my game isn't supported. But that's not the point. The point is whether or not the company is investing in the game, not whether individual groups are using the stuff being put out. That's an impossible standard to use given the diversity of groups out there.
 


Majoru Oakheart

Adventurer
And if I'm not using sourcebooks and that's all they're putting out, then my game isn't supported. But that's not the point. The point is whether or not the company is investing in the game, not whether individual groups are using the stuff being put out. That's an impossible standard to use given the diversity of groups out there.
Maybe. But I think that's exactly the point. I think for a game to truly be supported it needs a full product line so that it's likely there's something to appeal to everyone. However, I do believe that the game being constantly expanded is what makes the game feel like it continues. It feels like a living game.

Though, I concede that at least adventure show it hasn't been abandoned entirely. Most adventures last only a couple of months, however. Add a bunch of new classes to the game and a group could play for another couple of years just to fully experience them.
 

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