Should Str and Con be one stat?

[Celebrim]

In real life, Dexterity, Strength, and Constitution are partially dependent on each other. This is because each of the three scores bundles a large range of small abilities together in a single common statistic. For example, Dexterity includes your 'agility' which is very strongly dependent on your strength to weight ratio. Hense, on average we'd expect high Dex people to have higher strength than normal people. Likewise, Constitution includes you aerobic fitness, which is usually necessarily linked somewhat to strength because its hard to train one sort of muscle without getting some gains in another sort. On average we'd expect strong people to have slightly higher Constitutions than average. And so forth.

But the D&D system is just not set up for it, and its not clear that we'd gain alot by converting D20 into a system with 18 or more ability scores that have derived abilities as base skills and so forth (for example, average 'Power' (a strength stat) and 'Grace' (a dexterity stat) to get 'Agility', from which come your reflex bonuses, etc.). I've seen systems that work like that, and its somewhat interesting but alot of the time you still aren't 'realistic' and you've just added alot of complexity.

So, the short answer is "No, they shouldn't be one stat because they don't completely overlap and its interesting to break them out, but yes, they are somewhat dependent on each other but for the purposes of play we can safely ignore that."

 

[pawsplay]

I don't understand. In game terms, I'm looking for a character who would be weak and high con. A 5 Str, 16 Con type of person. Weaker than average, but tougher than average.

Bilbo Baggins.

 

[Umbran]

One system used for a number of larps has four stats - IQ, Will, Dex, and Strength. In essence, they've eliminated Con (wrapping it in Str), and Charisma (because it is a larp, and social interaction is modeled by having social interaction).

So, certainly, it can be done. The question is whether the system then does what you want it to do. Changes have repercussions.

For example - If you're using some version of point-buy, getting rid of one physical stat, but leaving all the mental stats means that it is cheaper to be physical. Good fighters become easier to do than canny, fast-talking rogues, and so on.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

While that may be true, would anyone really describe a marathon runner as weak?

I have a few friends who are marathon runners, and I would say that they are generally stronger than average. They may emphasize endurance over raw strength, but I don't think I could apply the label "weak but tough" to them.

For all the other ability pairs, I can think of higher than average + lower than average examples, but not this pair.

Stronger than average, yes? But if they increase their endurance to ironman levels, does that mean they can lift 500 pounds over their heads?

If you want to get into the biochemical side of things, it is about "fast-twitch" versus "slow-twitch" muscle fiber.

"Slow-twitch" muscle contains a lot of mitochondria and is good at aerobic metabolism. It can produce a long, sustained contractions, but is not efficient at sudden bursts of strength.

"Fast=twitch" muscle works anaerobically, producing short bursts of contraction and fatigues quickly. It is not necessarily stronger, but the rapid contraction can produce more force.

In terms of D&D, Con is usually defined as a "toughness" factor - more hit points, better able to resist disease or sudden trauma, but almost as a side note it is considered endurance ability as well. This is where it falls apart in the game. If Con were really an endurance attribute, a fighter with Str 18 and Con 6 would be able to lift a lot, but would not be able to walk for 3 hours carrying 200 pounds of armor, weapons and equipment. From that context, having a single attribute for power and endurance makes sense, unless you want to get into some kind of declining power matrix where your attack bonuses drop after so many rounds of combat because you are tiring. I still think Con is necessary, but as a pure toughness attribute, stipping away the endurance aspect.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

For example, Dexterity includes your 'agility' which is very strongly dependent on your strength to weight ratio. Hense, on average we'd expect high Dex people to have higher strength than normal people.

Really? I know weightlifters who are very strong, but have so much muscle mass that they have virtually no agility and flexibility whatsoever, and I think agility is a huge part of dexterity. I was the scrawny kid who could barely lift anything, and yet when I had to do wrestling in high school, I didn't lose to the strong kids every time simply because I could bend and twist my way out of holds - my dexterity exceeded that of the stronger kids.

 

[Celebrim]

Really? I know weightlifters who are very strong, but have so much muscle mass...

Right.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

Right.

OK, strength to weight ratio - I see your point.

So, higher Dex implies higher strength but not necessarily vice versa.

You can definitely see where the D&D system starts to fall apart if you try to fit it into reality.

 

[notjer]

For example, Dexterity includes your 'agility' which is very strongly dependent on your strength to weight ratio. Hense, on average we'd expect high Dex people to have higher strength than normal people.

Soo... does a soccer player have good dex ? No.

You canøt say a strong person normally have a good dex too. I have a Danish link where they argue that stiffness makes you stronger (if you train of course xD. However it is of course not healthy for your body to be like that. Some argue the other way, but I believe stiffness make you stronger.

Again, D&D is a very simple system not to be compared to much with real life.

 

[Ry]

Kill 'em all, let God sort it out.

Er, I mean,

I say consolidate the stats and let feat selection create the finer distinctions. STR/FORT, DEX/REFLEX, INT/WIL

 

[Rothe]

I always thought a game that had 3 stats would be cool:

Fortitude, Reflex, and Will

...

You mean like TFT with Strength, Dexterity and Intelligence?