Silly economics of DnD

[Mobius]

Correct to a point. What I should have stressed was MIXING historical models so as to arrive at a new one that took its various parts from existing historical models.

If I was to give advice to a new GM, I would almost suggest that they avoid mixing historical models too much. The reason I say this is that the economic aspect of a historical society cannot be 'cut out' of its setting without losing something in the bargain. The Renaissance, for example, had a strong middle class, transfer notes between moneylenders, trading guilds, prosperous city states, many explorers, etc. Those financial aspects of society came from the mind set of the day - the world was ripe for the picking and the powerful principle of money as a concept (rather than as coinage) had arisen.

This mindset didn't exist in the Medieval world because of the hazards of travel and the collection of power and physical money in the hands of the nobility and clergy. Money was wealth, to be sure, but wealth was also physical goods other than coinage to most people - primarily land. The idea of a piece of paper *representing* wealth would have been all but ludicrous, especially in the early Medieval period. And yet, this idea is the foundation of all the merchant princes from Venice to Milan ...

If you start mixing and matching throughout history, you end up with an economic system no longer rooted in the culture ... which is one of my goals as a GM. I admit that one could craft a believeable system out of cobbled bits from history, but I would think it would be much harder than just adopting one wholesale and making minor changes for the magical component.

That Jack Vance can manage such settings in his stories is one of the things that so endears his writing to me--his actual style being the principal other factor in his being my favorite author in the genres of F & SF

I like him, too. I put him in with a handful of writers that just 'get it', meaning that they understand that all aspects of culture interact and blend. He, like the rest of my top five (George R. Martin, JRRT, Gene Wolfe, Kim Stanley Robinson), gives little hints here and there that imply that his societies are dynamic and yet ageless. One can see *why* things have arisen as they have in his world.

 

[Mobius]

Sorry, dual post.

 

[jgbrowning]

This mindset didn't exist in the Medieval world because of the hazards of travel and the collection of power and physical money in the hands of the nobility and clergy. Money was wealth, to be sure, but wealth was also physical goods other than coinage to most people - primarily land. The idea of a piece of paper *representing* wealth would have been all but ludicrous, especially in the early Medieval period. And yet, this idea is the foundation of all the merchant princes from Venice to Milan ...

I agree to a point. but the concept of a piece of "paper" representing money goes way way back. cuniform slabs show basically, IOU's. There wasn't really paper money as we think of paper money during the "merchant prince' time, it was just an extened series of IOU's. And the reason that complex system of IOU's developed was the lack of specie to adaquately represent the massess of goods being traded, if i understand correctly.

medieval people understood the value of an IOU from someone who had wealth. they just didnt NEED as many IOU's as those in the reinasance (oneday i'll see how that is really spelled ) needed. but.. you probably know this allready and i dont disagree with your post, i guess im just clarifying a bit..

joe b.

 

[Mobius]

I agree and I disagree.

One of money's jobs is accounting (I did $108 worth of work today, you owe me $20), but its other job is to facilitate trade by 'representing' goods and units of labour in perpetuity - and not just with the original transaction. The cuniform tablets perform the first function of money, but don't perform the second.

I'll give you an example to illustrate what I mean:

I sell wheat. Joe sells camels. Joe needs wheat now, but his camel herd won't be calving until the spring. He writes an IOU on a tablet, signs it, and I hand over the wheat contingent upon getting 4 camels when the herd calves. The tablet, in this case, has accounted for our transaction, noting it for later reference.

Now, I am fed up to the eyeballs with wheat - cream of wheat, wheatballs, wheat bread - so I want to buy some rye instead. I go to Mary who sells rye and she laughs at me because I don't have any more wheat to trade with her. I could try handing her my tablet showing that Joe owes me four camels, but that is simply a promise from Joe to give them to me and not a guarantee that he in fact will. Mary, being astute, tells me to shove off until I have the camels.

The tablet, while accounting for physical wealth in a representative form, did not actually perform as *money*, if you get my drift. I could not trade the tablet for goods, as it were.

Money, though, you can trade for goods. Honest to goodness money - without any intrinsic value of its own like a silver coin has - didn't really arise until the late medieval period when certain merchants had so much wealth that their 'promises to pay' were so well regarded they could be traded from one person to another without reduction, with only the last person cashing it back in with the original merchants.

 

[drnuncheon]

No. I'm starting from the premise of skill points. Since there is obviously a misunderstanding, I'll attempt to clarify my position.

1. A peasant has, on average, 12 skill points.
2. He therefore has 12 skill points 'worth' of skills.
3. Given that he has to use the 12 skill points, we have to ask ourselves which it is most likely that he will have skill points in. I have discussed the other possible skills that he would have them in, and it is fair to assume that he puts some skills into Craft and/or Profession.

See, that's where you're falling down - at least IMO. The peasant doesn't "put" or "use" them anywhere. He doesn't get to choose "Oh, I think I'll get trained in Craft (pottery)". Instead, he takes whatever life experiences he gets, and then where his skill points go are figured based on that.

So the peasant who has not had the opportunity to be trained in a craft or a profession does not get to put skill points in that craft or profession.

Of course, even if the peasant doesn't have Craft skills, then his default nets him more than five times his usual wage, even using improvised tools. Why would he not therefore do this?

This is the other problem. The 'make half your check result in gp per week' is a convenient abstraction. Really, the craftsman should follow the more complex rules, paying for the raw materials (strike one for the moniless peasant) and then spending an appropriate amount of time making the item.

Let's say Joe Unskilled wants to make an iron pot (5 sp). First, he needs to spend a day and a half's wages for the raw materials (obviously, nobody's just going to give them to him.) Then, he gets his improvised tools (-2 penalty). He works for a week - he's got a 60% chance of not making any progress at all, and a 35% chance of actually ruining his raw materials. What's he going to live on until he gets lucky?

OK, maybe he's...er...making torches. That's got to be a 'very simple' item, right? So his average check of 8 times the DC of 5 means he makes 40 sp worth of torches in a week - assuming he can afford the raw materials, of course. (Which he can't - that's two week's wages for him!). Now he's got 400 torches - good for him. Who's going to buy them? What's the demand for torches? If all the unskilled laborers are making torches, there's a glut, the bottom drops out of the market because nobody can sell enough torches to live.

Side note: he can't actually take 10 on his Craft rolls - at least, I don't think crafting an item you're not trained to craft is a "routine untrained skill check" given that jumping is OK, but disguise is not.

As a counterexample, take Joe Skilled, a blacksmith with Craft (smithing) +4. He's going to be able to make 140 sp worth of iron pots in a week - 28 pots or 4/day. 93 sp of that is profit, or 9.3 gp per week - actually better than the PHB rate! Again, assuming that he sells them - I think we can assume that the difference between the PHB rate and the above figure is due to the fact that Joe probably doesn't have enough commissions to keep him busy 100% of the time.

So, you're right that there's a problem - the problem is in the abstracted "you get half your check result in gp" rule, and blindly applying it in all situations. It's OK as an abstraction for people actually working in the profession, but it shouldn't be used for unskilled checks.

J
taking 10 on his reality check

 

[Dragonblade]

This doesn't jive with the reality of similiar situations as they happened in history. Knowledge is power, and the spread of knowledge is the dilution of that power. Nevermind that most of the people just can't take the chances required to learn to use magic, either because they can't be spared from the farms or because they don't have the Intellegence/Wisdom to make it worthwhile for the teachers to bother. (And no, it's not worth it to train someone who can't do better than 0th or 1st level spells; 10 or 11 is what most folks have in those scores; they're better off on the farm working with their tools as they always have.)

Excellent Corinth! However, in the real world the church maintained power through controlling knowledge because knowledge was their enemy. As long as the peasants believed the church spoke for god, they had power. As soon as educated peasants began to question the so-called divine right of the church, then problems arose.

The wide spread dissemination of knowledge and learning is why organized religion is marginalized in wealthy industrialized nations and still powerful in poorer countries. People question what they cannot see or touch. But the poor need their faith because it gives them hope. The wealthy can afford to be cynical.

Now, I'm not saying there is no God or anything. I'm a devout Christian, I'm just analyzing this from a socio-political perspective. As long as God chooses to keep his power largely absent from the mortal plane, the church gains power only through belief of the faithful.

Now, in a world where the power of God (or gods) is very much in evidence, then the church doesn't need to be in collusion with the nobility and doesn't need to keep the people ignorant. In fact, now knowledge is their ally. To spread their faith and demonstrate their power they can cast spells. With a god taking a direct and divine hand in church affairs there will be no corruption and little political in-fighting. At least in a good church.

Prosperity and knowledge is good for people and can be encouraged without the danger of people growing cynical or disbelieving in their god. Especially when clerics of your god can raise the dead before your eyes!

And even though many peasants won't have the ability to become clerics, they will be valued as worshippers, and good gods especially will make sure their church cares for their flock. There will be divine accountability for all clerics.

Likewise, magic is like every other scholarly pursuit. In the Middle Ages there were many universities and scholars were held in high esteem and regard. With magic that effect would be amplified even more considering the direct increase in power such knowledge would give you.

And like all scholarly pursuits, the study of magic is helped enormously when like minded individuals can pool their knowledge and resources to share their learning and spells. Again, those mages of a cooperative mind-set would band together and share their knowledge. They would form guilds and likely universities to attract more fellows. And who better to perform tedious research for you than a team of aspiring magi undergrads?

I know many of you prefer to keep your games in a medieval background because it feels comfortable. But when you really start to think about people and economics in a world with magic, the path it takes you down is quite fascinating.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Well, there are several thoughts that I have on this subject. Dragonblade makes some excellent points, of which I entirely agree! True, many people like to maintain the game world like a 12th century European analogue. That's fine, of course, and even fun. However, I don't think it is very consistent though, and on close consideration, numerous problems arise. Consider:

Point #1: Lets say you start the campaign with such a fixed, 12th-century European model, with Party A.

I would submit that somewhere in the campaign world, even in the larger society that Party A is familiar with, there would be a nobleman who would see the value of magic being applied to society in broader ways. It also follows that it wouldn't be extraordinary for such a nobleman to find a wizard or two, a cleric, and some wealthier merchants.

The organization, production, and application of magic throughout society may not happen in that generation, or even the next. Certainly, though, the availability of lighting, wishes, permanency, disease-healing, healing, restoration, mending, cold/heat spells, fly, and on and on--the variety is endless--in and of itself would utterly change the much-cherished 12th-Century European model in so many huge ways, the environment would be radically and dramatically different.

Now, take that great vision of magic being applied throughout society, and run with it out through several generations. Think about the many huge ways such use of magic would effect society. Think about the effects three, four, five generations down the road.

And yet, in the same campaign world, five campaigns later, with Party E, the campaign world hasn't changed a bit. Everything is the same artificial 12th-Century European model.

Point #2: The application of magic in a variety of ways would certainly change the speed, quality, and modes of production in many if not all professions. Such productivity, would effect so many different things, like the following:

(1) Hot/Cold running water
(2) Sewage/waste removal
(3) 24-hour lighting
(4) Heating/Cooling
(5) Cold Storage
(6) Cooking enhancements
(7) Magical Travel Enhancements
(8) Magical Communications Enhancements
(9) Disease/Healing/Resurrection
(10) Wish/Building spells
(11) Enhanced Agriculture/Production
(12) Enhanced Animals

All of the above, just to start with, would change the productivity of society in nearly every way. The increased production would result in greater resources, greater wealth, and a changing of society's disposable time and wealth. These factors, in turn, would combine to create a driving force of magic, culture, and economics that, given even a few generations of dedication and passionate effort, would utterly change society.

For example, though 24-hour lighting, by itself, does not equal a full-scale industrial revolution--but it does equal the easy access to "electricity". The impact of easy and mass access to 24-hour lighting by everyone in society cannot be underestimated. It may not obviously have an immediate industrial effect, but it does mean, that for whoever can imagine and dream, and improve and use that lighting, that society is not restricted to the natural lighting and limitations of daylight. Many different societal nuances and enhancements can be imagined with just 24-hour lighting. That single factor alone can change the way society thinks, what it values, and how it spends its time.

Armourers, weaponsmiths, craftsmen of all types, can now work in three shifts. The same people aren't losing sleep--they can afford to hire more people, to increase production, and ship goods further away to meet growing demands in greater markets. This in turn, creates more wealth, becasue there are more skilled citizens making more money from professional skills. This in turn means that there is a greater degree of disposable income, which can in turn lead to new entertainments, 24-hour nightclubs, theaters, whatever, as new buisnesses arrise to meet the new demands of increasingly prosperous citizens, with more time and more discretionary income to spend. This in turn changes the nature of society even further, as people can also afford the time and wealth to become more educated and knowledgeable, which in turn adds to the societal force of change on a broad front.

Do you see? Unless the campaign world is forcibly kept in a fixed time-bubble, where progress is impossible, given ten generations from the beginnings of a decently professionalized and organized town, all of society would be dramatically different from the 12th-Century European Model.

The fact that these societies always seem to remain in 12th-Century mode, is thus inconsistent with the access and application of magic. Thinking through these concepts would change the society of the campaign in huge broad ways, that can be very interesting and fun to explore! Many people seem very hesitant to apply these concepts, even though that the availability of magic seems prima facie to utterly change things, and yet, because they are uncomfortable with such, they keep the same paradigm, regardless of how inconsistent--even with the stated magic levels--the campaign world would thus be.

Just some thoughts!

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Col_Pladoh]

Shark,

You get my vote on this matter

Gary

 

[mroberon1972]

All right... We basicly agree then...

All right... We basically agree then...

The standard "Dark Ages" model of economy does not work for the following reasons:

Magic:
If you figure that 10% of the population can use magic of some kind (Wizards, Sorcerers, Priests, Psionics, and Adepts), then this instantly changes everything we know and love in the time period. Even if you figure that half of this total number is first level, then every half left over is one level higher (1000 x 1st, 500 x 2nd, 250 x 3rd, 125 x 4th, etc...), then you still have huge change in the way business works.
Example: A 1st level expert Armor Smith wants to make chain mail. This takes a large number of man hours to do. Now a first level Adept Armor Smith craft skill comes along with a 1st level spell: Make Link. It's only effect is to take a 1" piece of metal wire and bend it into a circle, then weld it shut. Range of touch, duration 1 hour per level. How much more chain mesh do you think the Adept can make than the Expert? Uh huh... A days worth of labor done in an hour, and he still has all day to work on other projects. Mend is an easy one to figure out...
And do you think the smith will sell this chain mail made in 1/5 the time at the same price as the Expert? Nope! That's just D&D fake economy for you. He would sell it cheaper since he can sell MORE per month, and it took him less man hours! Poor Expert, progress got him... This is the beginning of magical tech advances.
Now lets discuss the magic of HEALING! Lets see... All a healer ever has to do is get a person one their feet and out of danger (above 0 HP and disease free). Since curing the disease also prevents its spread, plague would almost be impossible (it can happen, but it would take a nasty disease to do it...). Even if you go with the fact that Childbirth can cause con damage to the mother, a restoration after birth can do wonders. What church is not going to keep the children as health as possible, since they are its future! Population boom! Need more food! And now the temple begins blessing the farms and cattle to increase the food supply. Area gets stronger, people LOVE the church, and heretics get crisped by the locals without any church intervention!

MONSTERS:
Lots of happy health people mean lots of health well fed monsters! Admit it! Monsters, if given the choice between a cow or the milkmaid, will choose the milkmaid every time! Thats why they are monsters! Thats why there are adventurers! Monsters eat 100 milkmaids, heroes kill monster, hero's get milkmaids' purses for whatevery they were carrying? Heros spend money on people. Repeat....

Yes, I know it's way oversimplified and that you all already knew this, but the point is, the peasants are not going to be that poor in a D&D world unless they are being TAXED TO DEATH!
<cough> or eaten <cough cough ...

All right. Heckle me!

 

[herald]

Everytime this topic comes up, it would seem that people tend to grab on to on part of the subject and run with it, and forget many other hurtles that might cause economic models for stagnate.

Most commercial D&D settings are seemed to be locked into a modified middle ages economic system for many centuries longer than our own world went through.

Why? Well, there are two answers. The funny one and the generic long drawn out one.

The first answer is simple. People like the idea of Medieval adventure, hence they expect it to resemble that model. Nevermind the fact that many people have a movie/reniassance/medieval fair concept of it.

The second answer is life in a fantasy world is much more difficult than our own.

1) Magical light is not going to bring any sort of real sort of industrilization if resources are not plentyful enough, and easy enough to get from where ever they come from to the center in which they are mass produced.

2) (In most settings that I know of) Clerics and Wizards aren't typical people. Very few of them exist in any areas, and people can't just make the choice of become one. Clerics have to have a calling from the gods and Wizards have to have the right talent that can't just be tought.

3) When you become a high level magic wielding individuals, chances are you are a mark from other individuals. Your alignment doesn't matter. What does matter is simple. There are forces at play in the Universe that opposse your ethos (even if your Neutral) and are going to try and bring you down. Be it people or creatures you crossed on your way up the xp ladder, or a prime target for new adventuring party, or perhaps even a target for extradementional/divinie/profane creatures hoping to shift the ethos of the poeple in that area in a certain direction. You are just as much a target as the opponents that you fell.

4) Being a pesant isn't as cut and dry as many people think. I was in Russia recently and was in an actual "Peasant log cabin" The thought that went into the works was alot more indepth than you might think. But lets look more into western Europe from the time being.

a) Granted, a fuedal peasant, in other words, a serf, is going to very likely to be poor, and under educated, but have a very short life span. But if they were smart and lucky, they may buy there way out to freedom. Or, if they can't buy there way out, they may just bolt. Running while you are an endentured servant is risky, if you get caught, your going to get dragged back and beaten, or perhaps killed. (Maybe both). But if you can get to a city, and prove to someone there that you have some sort of talent, you might be able to make a living there, and at that point you are a freeman.

b) You could be a freeman and a farmer. Many families elevated themselves to some small power this way. But this meant that you controled some amount of land. Chances are that life is better for you than the serf.

Now lets take account what might happen in a "peasants" aka "Commoners" life in this fantasy world, with some real world examples.

1) A peasant might be pressed into service for a simple seige, or they might even be called into a crusade. (Multi-classing anyone). The peasant might pickup one or two levels in warrior, or worse they might die.

2) A peasant might be pressed into/conviced to assist building a religious building and/or fortress. Local peasants would brought into the construction on some days and still expected to farm thier lands. A real hard time, but it happened. Practicality insists that peasants are trained in atleast one or two more skills, if not more. Look to Reading and more advanced mathmatics getting more wide spread. (More multi-classing.) Then again, maybe wall will fall on them. Construction isn't always safe now, it sure wasn't then. Or maybe just the staggering work load will get them.

3) Your average peasant farmer has to endure drought, floods, winters, crop failure, insect infestations and many other problems, not to mention disease. Finding fresh, potable water can be a real chalenge. (Many people drank what was called "small beer" instead of water.) Plus you had to hope that your fellow local peasants were trustworthy and sane. You add to the fantasy aspect to that and you can add to you worries things like: ankhegs, bulettes, Orcs, undead, slavers, Necrmancers (Hey, those armies of zombies have to come from some were, this little hamlet looks as good an any place to start). This list can go on and on. The commoner doesn't have to defeat these, he just has to figure out a way to survive these threats. Don't be surprised if some of these learn hide, discern intent, the like to do it.

So we can look back at this and see that medieval society is built the peasants back. A back that is attached to a body that has the potential to learn a variety of things, and an even higher potential to die young.

If there are no throngs of people tring to make there way into the city, like the enclosurements that happened in England's history (A time that didn't fall until after Henry the VIII died) the beginings of industrilization of a civilization can't really get off the ground.

In order to bring a fantasy world like Greyhawk or Forgotten Realms in to an industrial age, you would need to have a reniassance period, where nations start to centralize there governments. (Hard to do when you have high level characters about). And start building a strong middle class in most nations, (IMHO) including the nations that have been considered "evil".

Until that happens, these worlds will end up in a bizarre economic model that would find most items prices in flux. Any mid-level character party can play havok with a economy by happering one industry or city.