Simple Question on Huge Daggers and Tiny Longswords

[Hypersmurf]

Maybe because all of the PHB ranged weapons (other than thrown ones) require two hands to operate?

That doesn't make them a two-handed weapon.

The term is not defined for ranged weapons.

"Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon."

Giving firearms a one-handed or two-handed designation is erroneous, unless they are intended to be used as melee weapons, like a clubbed musket or a rifle with a bayonet.

-Hyp.

 

[Snipehunt]

Well, except for the fact that the hilt is completely wrong, sure. Which is sort of the point.

Don't just look at the blade, look at the entire weapon. Any kind of dagger that's increased on size is going to have a hilt that is way too big for a human hand to comfortably deal with. If it's only the blade that's changing, it's not an upsized dagger - it's a normally sized shortsword.

I would be very surprised if the daggers you referenced had a hilt half as long and half as thick as Conan's sword in the picture there. I'd suspect them of being letter-openers sold to tourists in Spain rather than any sort of actual weapon.

J

There is simply no reason to support the 3.5 system based on "realism." It does not realistically portray differences in sizes of weapons, and adds in the extra surreality of reach and missile weapons.

I mean, are you really basing your support to the 3.5 system on the hilt of a bladed weapon? I am not a swordsmith, but I can swap out a hilt on a sword in 30 minutes, tops. The only relevant portion of the sword would be the tang, which is much smaller than the hilt and can easily support a hilt thicker or even thinner. Perhaps a huge dagger would be difficult to convert to a small-sized hand, but that's about where limits begin - not where the end, as under 3.5.

This is all trivial. And has no effect on the damage and usability of a weapon. There is absolutely no reason why, even if you think the hilt is important, you couldn't swap out a hilt and have a weapon usable without any difficulty. The balance issues are simply irrelevant. Really, all you are talking about is an improvised weapon penalty that should disappear once you have 1/2 an hour and a little time.

If you really wanted to do a silly comparison, you could put an enlarged cinqueda into Conan's hand. Still irrelevant, though, because the amalgam of dissimilar things we call "daggers," "longswords," and "short swords," and to a lesser extent bastard swords and greatswords, represent dozens, if not hundreds, of different weapons with vastly different balance, weight, hilts, etc.

Here's a small collection of images from the net, swords and daggers. Some things:

• Relative width/length/balance all change dramatically.
• Hilts vary in size dramatically.
• Although dagger width/length is different from longswords, the shortsword/longsword/bastardsword (and greatsword) ratio remains pretty much the same. So why the penalty?

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[drnuncheon]

I mean, are you really basing your support to the 3.5 system on the hilt of a bladed weapon? I am not a swordsmith, but I can swap out a hilt on a sword in 30 minutes, tops.

Of course, then you are altering the weapon, which is not really what was being discussed was it? Neither version has rules for altering existing weapons, so anything you get into here is house-rules territory.

Here's a small collection of images from the net, swords and daggers. Some things:

• Relative width/length/balance all change dramatically.
• Hilts vary in size dramatically.
• Although dagger width/length is different from longswords, the shortsword/longsword/bastardsword (and greatsword) ratio remains pretty much the same. So why the penalty?

Of course, without any sort of scale indicated on those weapons, it is literally impossible to determine whether or not hilts "vary in size dramatically". And when you say that, do you mean in length (which is to be expected) or in girth (which will vary much less, but is arguably more important)?

Furthermore, we need to ask if these are real weapons or merely show pieces? The latter, of course, do not need to be designed to the same specifications as a weapon used in combat, as any person familiar with the differences between "fantasy knives" and real weapons can tell you.

 

[FrankTrollman]

Of course, without any sort of scale indicated on those weapons, it is literally impossible to determine whether or not hilts "vary in size dramatically". And when you say that, do you mean in length (which is to be expected) or in girth (which will vary much less, but is arguably more important)?

You really don't have a clue what you are talking about, do you?

Have you ever swung a child's baseball bat? It's not difficult at all! It's suboptimal simply because you can't hit the ball nearly as far - not because the hilt is somehow too small for your hands to grip it properly.

A child's bat is half the length - or less - and holding and swinging it is in no way difficult for an adult.

-Frank

 

[Madfox]

A character in 3.0 with feats for specific weapons would suffer inmensely if somehow his size was changed on a permanent basis. A large long sword in 3.0 was a different weapon from a normal medium long sword and hence required different feats. With th 3.5 rules that problem gets solved.

I have been running 3.5 for a couple of months now, and the weapon size rules do not really form a problem. In fact with the amount of use enlarge person sees, the player of the fighter PC is probably glad with the new rules.

 

[drnuncheon]

You really don't have a clue what you are talking about, do you?

Yeah, I do. Do you?

Have you ever swung a child's baseball bat? It's not difficult at all! It's suboptimal simply because you can't hit the ball nearly as far - not because the hilt is somehow too small for your hands to grip it properly.

So, your contention is that it is just as easy to weild a weapon whose hilt is 1/2" diameter as it is to weild a weapon whose hilt is 1" in diameter, and there is no appreciable difference between that and a weapon whose hilt is, say, 4" in diameter?

One has to wonder, if you are right, why people bother putting grips on swords at all - why not just grasp it by the tang, if the size of the hilt doesn't matter? It'd certainly make them easier to construct, wouldn't it? But wait...nobody did that. I wonder why? Could it be that the size of the hilt is important?

Try it sometime, then come back and we'll talk. Swinging a baseball bat a couple of times doesn't count. (Although I'd be interested in seeing your hitting average between a regular-size bat and this child-size one you claim experience with - I'll bet you hit less often with the child-size bat.)

If the hilt size is wrong for your hand, you're not going to have a good grip. If you have a poor grip, your accuracy is going to be negatively affected. If you have a poor grip, your hands are not going to be comfortable. After you use the sword for any significant period of time, they will begin to cramp. You don't even need to use swords - if you go out and use different tools you'll see how important a good grip is.

J

 

[Aaron2]

A halfling is about 3 feet tall. To match the size of a halfling, the kid would be about 4 years old. A child's bat or sword made for a 12 year old who is 3/4 the height of an adult isn't a fair approximation.


Aaron

 

[FrankTrollman]

A "masterwork sword" in the real world has a hilt built exclusively for one person. Generally, to get full effectiveness out of a blade the hilt is replaced for the new owner.

And that's about it. Having a hilt fitted to your hand is a luxury - not a requirement. And whether the hilt is 1/2" in diameter, 1" in diameter, or 12" in diameter - it's still just "not fitted" for you. I have a difficult time seeing a character get a masterwork bonus for any sword which has not had the hilt refit (a task that takes about half an hour).

This is, however, a trivial matter - and one which the game does not even bother to address. If a female human and a male dwarf can hand a masterwork sword back and forth and still claim the masterwork bonus - there's no reason why a human and a halfling couldn't do the same thing.

Using children's equipment simply isn't difficult at all. And that's more than the difference between humans and halflings. Grade school children are small, preschool children are tiny. And using their equipment is not in any way difficult.

Go to a preschool and take the toy hammers they have and swing them around. They are really light (generally being made of plastic and all) - but do you see yourself having any difficulty holding them? Of course not!

Now go to a little league and pick up one of the metal bats. Swing it around some. Do you have difficulty swinging it? You may have difficulty bringing both of your arms in on it based upon its length compared to the breadth of your shoulders - but that's what you'd expect when a weapon becomes light anyway. As to the problem of holding and swinging it - it's just not a problem at all.

We have opposable thumbs. Look at your hand, it gets really big, and it gets really small. I can wrap my hand around a knitting needle. If I wanted to, I could stab people with it. I can also wrap my hand around the leg of my chair - and since it's removable, I could totally hit people with it. The knitting needle is about 1 mm in diameter. The chair leg is a good 8 centimeters. Neither is a problem because I have a thumb, a flexible palm, and four fingers with three joints each. When I make a fist, I can hold water in my hand - that's how tightly my hands can close. When I move furniture I can hold a refrigerator closed while lifting it - that's how open they can grip.

Yes, I can easily pick up and swing objects which are different in width by 80 times. And that's just in the room right now. I have no doubt in my mind that I can pick up and swing larger things - especially if I was going to use two hands.

The degree to which you are selling thumbs short is puzzling. When was the last time you picked something up?

-Frank

 

[drnuncheon]

And that's about it. Having a hilt fitted to your hand is a luxury - not a requirement.

We're not talking about precise fit. We're talking about being the same general size.

Yes, you can pick up a knitting needle and stab someone with it. Do you really, honestly think you have the same degree of control as you do with a knife? Of course not. There's that penalty. You can do it, but it's harder. That's what penalty means.

Grade school children are small, preschool children are tiny. And using their equipment is not in any way difficult.

Maybe not in waving them around. If you took a real hammer sized that way and tried to pound nails with it you would find your hand cramping from the small size of the grip. We're not talking about waving it around in the air for 5 seconds, remember - we're talking about trying to kill someone. We're talking about using the weapon with great force for a significant amount of time. Nobody's disputing what you can effectively pick up. I'm disputing the claim that you can pick up a knitting needle and use it in a 10-minute battle and be equally as accurate and effective as you could with a weapon that has a proper hilt.

Again I ask, since you didn't answer the first time: If hilts aren't important, why do all swords have them?

Look at some suggestions for using hand tools - they're the closest thing you're going to find in the modern world.

Here's a quote from an ergonomics website: "Tools should fit in the hand for a comfortable grip, about 1 1/2" in diameter. A grip that is too big or too small cause muscles to overwork."

Here's another one: "A tool such as a hammer should have a diameter of at least 1½ inches."

And this one's from OSHA: "Tool handles that are too small or too big reduce the employee’s grip efficiency. Improperly sized handles force employees to exert more finger force just to hold it. Continual or prolonged exertion of finger force can lead to tendon inflammation and injury, especially if the wrist is bent."

Now, what would be the game effects of finger strain and injury? Might they be...a penalty?

Food for thought.

J

 

[FrankTrollman]

Yes, you can pick up a knitting needle and stab someone with it. Do you really, honestly think you have the same degree of control as you do with a knife?

Actually, you have more control with the knitting needle. It's inertia is negligible and it goes pretty much exactly where you tell it to. If you have one of the sharp ones, they are actually quite deadly. The problem, such as it is, is the reach on that thing (which is very small). There are no "control" issues with a knitting needle.

If you took a real hammer sized that way and tried to pound nails with it you would find your hand cramping from the small size of the grip.

Actually, I had a metal set when I was that age, and my hand doesn't cramp up when I swing it now. Actually, your arm gets tired because you have very little leverage and end up doing almost all of the work in pounding the nails with your body. That's represented by a vastly reduced damage value, not any kind of magical penalty to use them in the first place.

Here's a quote from an ergonomics website: "Tools should fit in the hand for a comfortable grip, about 1 1/2" in diameter. A grip that is too big or too small cause muscles to overwork."

Yes, otherwise the Fighter might get carpal tunnel syndrome in five to fifteen years! Oh no!

Seriously - long term users of fine tools find themselves with bad wrists and strained eyes - what if anything this has to do with sword fighting I don't know.

Now, what would be the game effects of finger strain and injury? Might they be...a penalty?

What are the game effects of exposing yourself to alchemical solvents all day? Might they be... cancer in twenty years? The game doesn't keep track of things you do that are bad for your long term health. Characters get stabbed with rusty spears every day - and that's probably not good for you either. Aside from the very real risk of meningitis - that's going to scar and cause progressive weakening of the bone and putting the body in a constant state of emergency repair is tumor-genic and the game doesn't care because that's not heroic!

Things which are bad for your long term health - like typing on a keyboard or living on trail rations do not get factored into D&D. And they certainly aren't larger modifiers than whether or not your opponent is carrying a shield!

-Frank