D&D (2024) Size, Carrying Capacity, Strength, Athletics, Mobility

[Yaarel]

The table that I create here took an enormous amount of work. It synthesizes different kinds of medical studies and sports statistics. The numbers are accurate, assuming the same body proportions at each height. The extreme Hugeness and Tininess are fantastical, similar to why a Large Spider or Gargantuan Dragon is, but the numbers extrapolate from reallife, assuming the same proportion and density. Because height is a linear length and weight is a cubic volume, when two people share the same proportions, the one that is twice the height is eight-times heavier.

Despite the precision of the numbers, each should be taken as a ballpark figure, since the proportions of each individual differ somewhat. The examples list a "Swimmer Physique" (fit, lean, sculpted muscle) and "Bodybuilder Physique" (making muscles bulkier). There is of course a range anywhere between these builds, as well as a bit slimmer and lighter than the Swimmer, and bulkier and burlier than the Bodybuilder. To be medically "overweight" or a bit pudgy, add about 25% to the weight, and to be medically "obese" add about 33%, and upto about 100% is possible. For the sake of consistency across different kinds of data, the numbers in the table derive from statistics for American men. Note, Olympic gymnasts tend to exhibit the Bodybuilder Physique, because agility is pure Strength. Also note, the UFC-MMA stats divide into the weight classes that encourage very tall and very thin fighters. Tall so that the punches and kicks have longer reach. Thin so they can stay under the maximum weight limit of the next lower weight class where their height is an advantage. However, the heavyweight class is a wide range, anywhere from 205 pounds to 265 pounds. So most heavyweights dont need to worry about staying under the 265 pound limit. Then massiveness of both height and muscle is the advantage. Also notice, the proportions of very young children, with larger head and squatter legs and arms, make them heavier than someone with an adult physique at the same height. The Swimmer Physique can be true from the age of 7 and up. Consider there are reallife people who are extraordinarily tall, some almost 10 feet. When healthy, they are Large.

The purpose of the table is to get a strong sense of what the D&D Sizes mean, by comparing the reallife data. The table is very useful when deciding on a character concept. Hopefully, simple abstractions for rules and rules of thumb can derive from this information.



SIZE HEIGHT-WEIGHT PHYSIQUE (TABLE)

Height Feet	Size	Swimmer Physique	Bodybuilder Physique	Fighter Weight Class (Max Weight Limit) at Average Height	Child Development (Average Weight) at Average Height
32'	Gargantuan	25,400 lb	32,800 lb
31'	Huge	23,100 lb	29,800 lb
30'	Huge	21,000 lb	27,000 lb
29'	Huge	18,900 lb	24,400 lb
28'	Huge	17,000 lb	22,000 lb
27'	Huge	15,300 lb	19,700 lb
26'	Huge	13,600 lb	17,600 lb
25'	Huge	12,100 lb	15,600 lb
24'	Huge	10,700 lb	13,800 lb
23'	Huge	9,400 lb	12,200 lb
22'	Huge	8,300 lb	10,60 lb
21'	Huge	7,190 lb	9,260 lb
20'	Huge	6,210 lb	8,000 lb
19'	Huge	5,320 lb	6,860 lb
18'	Huge	4,530 lb	5,830 lb
17'	Huge	3,810 lb	4,910 lb
16'	Huge	3,180 lb	4,100 lb
15'	Large	2,620 lb	3,380 lb
14'	Large	2,130 lb	2,740 lb
13'	Large	1,710 lb	2,200 lb
12'	Large	1,340 lb	1,730 lb
11'	Large	1,030 lb	1,330 lb
10'	Large	776 lb	1,000 lb
9'	Large	566 lb	729 lb
8'11	Large
8'10	Large	535 lb	689 lb
8'9	Large
8'8	Large	505 lb	651 lb
8'7	Large
8'6	Large	477 lb	614 lb
8'5	Large
8'4	Large	449 lb	579 lb
8'3	Large
8'2	Large	423 lb	545 lb
8'1	Large
8'	Large	397 lb	512 lb
7'11	Powerful
7'10	Powerful	373 lb	481 lb
7'9	Powerful
7'8	Powerful	350 lb	451 lb
7'7	Powerful
7'6	Powerful	327 lb	421 lb
7'5	Powerful
7'4	Powerful	306 lb	394 lb
7'3	Powerful
7'2	Powerful	286 lb	368 lb
7'1	Powerful	276 lb	355 lb
7'	Powerful	266 lb	343 lb
6'11	Medium	257 lb	331 lb
6'10	Medium	248 lb	319 lb
6'9	Medium	239 lb	308 lb
6'8	Medium	230 lb	296 lb
6'7	Medium	221 lb	285 lb
6'6	Medium	213 lb	275 lb
6'5	Medium	205 lb	264 lb
6'4	Medium	197 lb	254 lb
6'3	Medium	189 lb	244 lb	Heavy (265 lb)
6'2	Medium	182 lb	235 lb	Light Heavy (205 lb)
6'1	Medium	175 lb	225 lb
6'	Medium	168 lb	216 lb	Middle (185 lb)
5'11	Medium	161 lb	207 lb	Welter (170 lb)
5'10	Medium	154 lb	198 lb	Light (155 lb)
5'9	Medium	148 lb	190 lb	Feather (145 lb)
5'8	Medium	141 lb	182 lb
5'7	Medium	135 lb	174 lb	Bantam (135 lb)
5'6	Medium	129 lb	166 lb
5'5	Medium	123 lb	135 lb	Fly (125 lb)
5'4	Medium	118 lb	152 lb
5'3	Medium	112 lb	145 lb	Straw (115 lb)
5'2	Medium	107 lb	138 lb
5'1	Medium	102 lb	131 lb	Atom (105 lb)
5'	Medium	97 lb	125 lb
4'11	Medium	92 lb	119 lb
4'10	Medium	88 lb	113 lb		Tween 12-year (89 lb)
4'9	Medium	83 lb	107 lb
4'8	Medium	79 lb	102 lb		Tween 11-year (79 lb)
4'7	Medium	75 lb	96 lb
4'6	Medium	71 lb	91 lb		Tween 10-year (71 lb)
4'5	Medium	67 lb	86 lb
4'4	Medium	63 lb	81 lb		Tween 9-year (63 lb)
4'3	Medium
4'2	Medium	56 lb	72 lb		Child 8-year (56 lb)
4'1	Medium
4'	Medium	50 lb	64 lb		Child 7-year (50 lb)
3'11	Small
3'10	Small	44 lb	56 lb
3'9	Small				Child 6-year (45 lb)
3'8	Small	38 lb	49 lb
3'7	Small				Child 5-year (40 lb)
3'6	Small	33 lb	43 lb
3'5	Small
3'4	Small	29 lb	37 lb		Child 4-year (35 lb)
3'3	Small
3'2	Small	25 lb	32 lb		Child 3-year (32 lb)
3'1	Small
3'	Small	21 lb	27 lb
2'11	Small				Toddler 2-year (28 lb)
2'10	Small	18 lb	23 lb
2'9	Small				Toddler 20-month (25 lb)
2'8	Small	15 lb	19 lb
2'7	Small				Toddler 16−month (22 lb)
2'6	Small	12 lb	16 lb
2'5	Small				Toddler 1-year (20 lb)
2'4	Small	9.9 lb	13 lb
2'3	Small				Baby 7-month (18 lb)
2'2	Small	7.9 lb	10 lb		Baby 5-month (16 lb)
2'1	Small				Baby 3-month (14 lb)
2'	Small	6.2 lb	8.0 lb		Baby 2-month (12 lb)
1'11	Tiny				Baby 2-month (11 lb)
1'10	Tiny	4.8 lb	6.2 lb		Baby 1-month (10 lb)
1'9	Tiny				Newborn (7.9 lb)
1'8	Tiny	3.6 lb	4.6 lb
1'7	Tiny
1'6	Tiny	2.6 lb	3.4 lb
1'5	Tiny
1'4	Tiny	1.8 lb	2.4 lb
1'3	Tiny
1'2	Tiny	1.2 lb	1.6 lb
1'1	Tiny
1'	Tiny	0.78 lb	1.0 lb

 

[CreamCloud0]

Those small and tiny creatures do not have extreme strength. They have an athletic ability.

i think it would make sense if athletics was split into 'brawn' which would be more stuff like your capacity to lift weights, smash doors and bend iron bars, basically your ability to exert your strength on the external world, and keep 'athletics' as your 'internal' strength for stuff like how fast you can run, how far you can jump, how strong your swimming or climbing is, more closer to but not exactly stamina, your condtioning maybe.

and like i mentioned in the rogues thread i would also change intimidation to be a STR skill but that's tangential to the main point but still relevant to the lack of STR skills.

 

[Scott Christian]

When 2024 rules disentangle Strength Athletics from Strength Weightlifting, it will be far easier to utilize and describe one without the other. Thus there can be a low Strength Athletics "lumbering Giant" versus a high Strength Athletics "pouncing Panther", even a high Strength Athletics Rabbit.

Meanwhile Size and Weightlifting skill quantify brute force separately.

Then a "gritty" genre variant in the DMs Guide can detail some ways to keep Small "small".

But the rules do not disentangle them. In fact, they make them even vaguer than previous editions. It is a step towards unrealistic high fantasy. You know, the giant swords that are nine feet long, the character that falls 200' and easily lives, and the halfling that can stop a giant from breaking a door. Again, it is ok. That is what D&D is, and I personally, am fine with it. It doesn't need to be fiddled with or overexplained. Because the second you start to do either one of those things, you actually break the immersion of unrealistic high fantasy. Verisimilitude can go both ways.

I did the math.

According to D&D 5e Monster Manual, a Frost Giant is about 21 feet tall, and has humanlike proportions. Therefore:

• Frost Giant with Swimmers Build weighs around: 7,187 pounds

• Frost Giant with Bodybuilder Build weighs around: 9,261 pounds

If this Giant tries to kick thru a door, there are many tons of force. Unless the smaller creatures are using magic, there is no resisting this force. Of course, the door itself might be structurally reinforced, but then the smaller creatures wont be adding much to its resistance.


Because height is a linear length and weight is a cubic volume, when two creatures have the same body proportions, the one that is twice the size is eight-times the weight.

So, a 3-foot Halfling has about an eighth of the body mass of a 6-foot Human.

That is interesting. Thanks for doing the math.

While I appreciate the "sciencing" of rules, I still hold the belief that it is better left cloud-shaped.

I basically agree.

My contention is, what you characterize as "unrealistic" fantastical exaggeration, is what I characterize as by definition "magic".

But it is innate magic − not the kind of magic that is manipulated by formulaic words. In other words, the power source is psionic or primal, rather than arcane or divine.

That is one way to look at the PCs. I should note that neither core books say the PCs are of a magical nature when talking about their race. It says they have infernal blood or dragon blood. It says they come from a magical place. And it says they are uncharacteristically endowed with high abilities. But not magical.

But I am not raining on anyone's parade. If you or another table wants them to be magical, more power to you.

Re Superman as defacto magic. Even if a "sufficiently advanced" technology, it is still a D&D magic power source.

Notably, nothing about Superman feels like the arcane power source or the divine power source. Superman might be the psionic power source, like his son is. To me Superman feels like the primal power source. He is a manifestation of the four elements: fiery laser beam eyes, watery icy breath, airy flight, and earthy "man of steel". Thus, like other nature beings, he is an innate caster of the primal power source who wills his elemental manifestation into existence.

I agree. But my point was it is explained over and over and over why he is "magical." The world he inhabits goes out of its way to explicitly state where he gets his power, why he has this power, and then goes out of their way to explain why he has certain weaknesses. (Coincidentally, in his world, magic is one of his weaknesses.)
The point I was making is the PHB does not explain over and over why a 30-pound character can have the same strength as a 400-pound giant. As I said, they go out of their way to not explain it because they have to walk the line of unrealistic high fantasy, but also be a gritty RPG for those that want it.

 

[tetrasodium]

Yeah. In an abstracted Size system, something that is solid metal, such as a chest full of gold coins, needs to be ridiculously heavy-cumbersome.

It reminds me, in the medieval and ancient world, a box full of coins was often carried on poles (like a coffin) on the shoulders of at least four people.

Being clear to start out & avoid misunderstandings, the rules in 5e are stupid here,,, very stupid & the result hurts gameplay by eliminating "it's a lot to carry" until the GM gets passive agressive & converts the world to a currency based on statues or something that has a value less than its weight in gold.

except in d&d you know exactly how not at all heavy it is the Chest is a 25 pound object. That makes the chest about half the weight of an ikea 8 drawer dresser. on top of that the rules say that fifty coins only weigh a pound here. As a result of that the rules say that a bonkers 15,000 coins of any denomination in a chest weighs a mere 325 pounds. 325 pounds of course being slightly more or less than a literal honda engine.

By comparison... Here in the US it's common for businesses to get boxes of coins in various set denominations with quarters being in a roughly 10.5x5x3.5inch 500$ box of tightly wrapped & stacked quarters that weighs about 50 pounds for 2000 coins at around 40 quarters per pound. Scaling that up to 15000 quarters you have 375 pounds from the quarters alone. The chest needed to hold that 3750$ in quarters would be about 7.5x bigger than the 500$ one & obviously not something any more suitable for carrying around in a fight than the honda engine or the fully assembled ikea furniture... Unfortunately 5e's encumbrance & capacity rules shrink it down to be a speck of neutronium casually carried about in the middle of a fight

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

The table that I create here took an enormous amount of work. It synthesizes different kinds of medical studies and sports statistics. The numbers are accurate, assuming the same body proportions at each height. The extreme Hugeness and Tininess are fantastical, similar to why a Large Spider or Gargantuan Dragon is, but the numbers extrapolate from reallife, assuming the same proportion and density. Because height is a linear length and weight is a cubic volume, when two people share the same proportions, the one that is twice the height is eight-times heavier.

Despite the precision of the numbers, each should be taken as a ballpark figure, since the proportions of each individual differ somewhat. The examples list a "Swimmer Physique" (fit, lean, sculpted muscle) and "Bodybuilder Physique" (making muscles bulkier). There is of course a range anywhere between these builds, as well as a bit slimmer and lighter than the Swimmer, and bulkier and burlier than the Bodybuilder. To be medically "overweight" or a bit pudgy, add about 25% to the weight, and to be medically "obese" add about 33%, and upto about 100% is possible. For the sake of consistency across different kinds of data, the numbers in the table derive from statistics for American men. Note, Olympic gymnasts tend to exhibit the Bodybuilder Physique, because agility is pure Strength. Also note, the UFC-MMA stats divide into the weight classes that encourage very tall and very thin fighters. Tall so that the punches and kicks have longer reach. Thin so they can stay under the maximum weight limit of the next lower weight class where their height is an advantage. However, the heavyweight class is a wide range, anywhere from 205 pounds to 265 pounds. So most heavyweights dont need to worry about staying under the 265 pound limit. Then massiveness of both height and muscle is the advantage. Also notice, the proportions of very young children, with larger head and squatter legs and arms, make them heavier than someone with an adult physique at the same height. The Swimmer Physique can be true from the age of 7 and up. Consider there are reallife people who are extraordinarily tall, some almost 10 feet. When healthy, they are Large.

The purpose of the table is to get a strong sense of what the D&D Sizes mean, by comparing the reallife data. The table is very useful when deciding on a character concept. Hopefully, simple abstractions for rules and rules of thumb can derive from this information.



SIZE HEIGHT-WEIGHT PHYSIQUE (TABLE)

Height Feet	Size	Swimmer Physique	Bodybuilder Physique	Fighter Weight Class (Max Weight Limit) at Average Height	Child Development (Average Weight) at Average Height
32'	Gargantuan	25,400 lb	32,800 lb
31'	Huge	23,100 lb	29,800 lb
30'	Huge	21,000 lb	27,000 lb
29'	Huge	18,900 lb	24,400 lb
28'	Huge	17,000 lb	22,000 lb
27'	Huge	15,300 lb	19,700 lb
26'	Huge	13,600 lb	17,600 lb
25'	Huge	12,100 lb	15,600 lb
24'	Huge	10,700 lb	13,800 lb
23'	Huge	9,400 lb	12,200 lb
22'	Huge	8,300 lb	10,60 lb
21'	Huge	7,190 lb	9,260 lb
20'	Huge	6,210 lb	8,000 lb
19'	Huge	5,320 lb	6,860 lb
18'	Huge	4,530 lb	5,830 lb
17'	Huge	3,810 lb	4,910 lb
16'	Huge	3,180 lb	4,100 lb
15'	Large	2,620 lb	3,380 lb
14'	Large	2,130 lb	2,740 lb
13'	Large	1,710 lb	2,200 lb
12'	Large	1,340 lb	1,730 lb
11'	Large	1,030 lb	1,330 lb
10'	Large	776 lb	1,000 lb
9'	Large	566 lb	729 lb
8'11	Large
8'10	Large	535 lb	689 lb
8'9	Large
8'8	Large	505 lb	651 lb
8'7	Large
8'6	Large	477 lb	614 lb
8'5	Large
8'4	Large	449 lb	579 lb
8'3	Large
8'2	Large	423 lb	545 lb
8'1	Large
8'	Large	397 lb	512 lb
7'11	Powerful
7'10	Powerful	373 lb	481 lb
7'9	Powerful
7'8	Powerful	350 lb	451 lb
7'7	Powerful
7'6	Powerful	327 lb	421 lb
7'5	Powerful
7'4	Powerful	306 lb	394 lb
7'3	Powerful
7'2	Powerful	286 lb	368 lb
7'1	Powerful	276 lb	355 lb
7'	Powerful	266 lb	343 lb
6'11	Medium	257 lb	331 lb
6'10	Medium	248 lb	319 lb
6'9	Medium	239 lb	308 lb
6'8	Medium	230 lb	296 lb
6'7	Medium	221 lb	285 lb
6'6	Medium	213 lb	275 lb
6'5	Medium	205 lb	264 lb
6'4	Medium	197 lb	254 lb
6'3	Medium	189 lb	244 lb	Heavy (265 lb)
6'2	Medium	182 lb	235 lb	Light Heavy (205 lb)
6'1	Medium	175 lb	225 lb
6'	Medium	168 lb	216 lb	Middle (185 lb)
5'11	Medium	161 lb	207 lb	Welter (170 lb)
5'10	Medium	154 lb	198 lb	Light (155 lb)
5'9	Medium	148 lb	190 lb	Feather (145 lb)
5'8	Medium	141 lb	182 lb
5'7	Medium	135 lb	174 lb	Bantam (135 lb)
5'6	Medium	129 lb	166 lb
5'5	Medium	123 lb	135 lb	Fly (125 lb)
5'4	Medium	118 lb	152 lb
5'3	Medium	112 lb	145 lb	Straw (115 lb)
5'2	Medium	107 lb	138 lb
5'1	Medium	102 lb	131 lb	Atom (105 lb)
5'	Medium	97 lb	125 lb
4'11	Medium	92 lb	119 lb
4'10	Medium	88 lb	113 lb		Tween 12-year (89 lb)
4'9	Medium	83 lb	107 lb
4'8	Medium	79 lb	102 lb		Tween 11-year (79 lb)
4'7	Medium	75 lb	96 lb
4'6	Medium	71 lb	91 lb		Tween 10-year (71 lb)
4'5	Medium	67 lb	86 lb
4'4	Medium	63 lb	81 lb		Tween 9-year (63 lb)
4'3	Medium
4'2	Medium	56 lb	72 lb		Child 8-year (56 lb)
4'1	Medium
4'	Medium	50 lb	64 lb		Child 7-year (50 lb)
3'11	Small
3'10	Small	44 lb	56 lb
3'9	Small				Child 6-year (45 lb)
3'8	Small	38 lb	49 lb
3'7	Small				Child 5-year (40 lb)
3'6	Small	33 lb	43 lb
3'5	Small
3'4	Small	29 lb	37 lb		Child 4-year (35 lb)
3'3	Small
3'2	Small	25 lb	32 lb		Child 3-year (32 lb)
3'1	Small
3'	Small	21 lb	27 lb
2'11	Small				Toddler 2-year (28 lb)
2'10	Small	18 lb	23 lb
2'9	Small				Toddler 20-month (25 lb)
2'8	Small	15 lb	19 lb
2'7	Small				Toddler 16−month (22 lb)
2'6	Small	12 lb	16 lb
2'5	Small				Toddler 1-year (20 lb)
2'4	Small	9.9 lb	13 lb
2'3	Small				Baby 7-month (18 lb)
2'2	Small	7.9 lb	10 lb		Baby 5-month (16 lb)
2'1	Small				Baby 3-month (14 lb)
2'	Small	6.2 lb	8.0 lb		Baby 2-month (12 lb)
1'11	Tiny				Baby 2-month (11 lb)
1'10	Tiny	4.8 lb	6.2 lb		Baby 1-month (10 lb)
1'9	Tiny				Newborn (7.9 lb)
1'8	Tiny	3.6 lb	4.6 lb
1'7	Tiny
1'6	Tiny	2.6 lb	3.4 lb
1'5	Tiny
1'4	Tiny	1.8 lb	2.4 lb
1'3	Tiny
1'2	Tiny	1.2 lb	1.6 lb
1'1	Tiny
1'	Tiny	0.78 lb	1.0 lb

This isn't real life data. That isn't what data means. You're just guessing at numbers that feel "right" to you, based on... height and 2 body types? Most power lifters are shorter and stronger than basketball players. Assigning strength to newborn humans based on swimmer and bodybuilder physique, and body length? And I'm not extrapolating an extreme. It's literally in the table.

I'm sorry that it took you an enormous amount of work to make this table, but I don't see even 1 way that this table is useful at my table, let alone how it would be implemented in a D&D book. How would this apply to the revised ruleset being worked on?

 

[Neonchameleon]

But when Small creatures use Strength for "brute force" "Weightlifting", it gives me pause.

Dont get me wrong. The Norwegian version of a Gnome is a tomte (or tuft). This is a nature being whose manifestation is supernaturally strong, because it wields mental strength, rather than anatomical strength. Bending metal bars is a typical trope for the "hidden" beings. In other words, magic.

If the Halfling is a magical character, then one can have unrealistic Weightlifting, the same way Superman does, magically.

But if the Halfling is a naturalistic concept. Then I would rather the concept avoid the Carrying Capacity and the Weightlifting skill.

On the other hand, all it takes is magic. If the Halfling has a single Dwarf ancestor, that is enough to wield rocklike elemental force, magically.

Agreed - I'd be happier if small characters by default had half carrying capacity and half armour/weapon weights (while taking half a spot in a tent).

 

[Horwath]

Agreed - I'd be happier if small characters by default had half carrying capacity and half armour/weapon weights (while taking half a spot in a tent).

Do not forget half base damage with weapons also.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Do not forget half base damage with weapons also.

I'll think about agreeing with that when you can tell me exactly what a hit point is and how it works in-universe.

 

[Horwath]

I'll think about agreeing with that when you can tell me exactly what a hit point is and how it works in-universe.

smaller weapons, less damage to "meat" part of HP.
smaller weapons, less reach, less damage to "avoidance" part of HP.

but, yeah, I agree, HPs are abstraction mess to describe.

 

[Mistwell]

I still don't understand the purpose of this thread, the reason this thread is in this section of the forum, or the claim, "When 2024 rules disentangle Strength Athletics from Strength Weightlifting." Where did WOTC indicate the 2024 rules will be making that change? Is this a basis to formulate houserules?