D&D (2024) Size, Carrying Capacity, Strength, Athletics, Mobility

[tetrasodium]

this formula does not work as world record holder, Jimmy Kolb is 148Kg(326lb)

also, very optimistic that average American is 68kg(150lb)

Did he Carry 326 while doing something like casually rocking out in a mosh pit, boxing a full match, playing basketball for several hours, etc? I picked a range of normal activities that might somewhat approximate adventuring levels of exertion but always thought that those weightlifting contests tend to be a very small number of lifts while doing nothing else and remembering in place during the lift. That range of activities while "carrying around 326 pounds is a critical distraction because @Yaarel was talking about the str x15 "carry" a & 5e character can "lift"twice that allowing a strength 8 wizard to "lift"240 with ease or casually spend the day wandering unconcerned through the great library uphill in the snow with ease while carrying 120 pounds of books like it was nothing. A strength 20 character at the other end of the spectrum can "lift" 600 pounds or double that with powerful build

 

[Horwath]

except in d&d you know exactly how not at all heavy it is the Chest is a 25 pound object. That makes the chest about half the weight of an ikea 8 drawer dresser. on top of that the rules say that fifty coins only weigh a pound here. As a result of that the rules say that a bonkers 15,000 coins of any denomination in a chest weighs a mere 325 pounds. 325 pounds of course being slightly more or less than a literal honda engine.

By comparison... Here in the US it's common for businesses to get boxes of coins in various set denominations with quarters being in a roughly 10.5x5x3.5inch 500$ box of tightly wrapped & stacked quarters that weighs about 50 pounds for 2000 coins at around 40 quarters per pound. Scaling that up to 15000 quarters you have 375 pounds from the quarters alone. The chest needed to hold that 3750$ in quarters would be about 7.5x bigger than the 500$ one & obviously not something any more suitable for carrying around in a fight than the honda engine or the fully assembled ikea furniture... Unfortunately 5e's encumbrance & capacity rules shrink it down to be a speck of neutronium casually carried about in the middle of a fight

this is why I love the factor of 100 instead of 10 for coins.

1PP=100GP=10.000SP=1.000.000CP

so one full plate is 15GP instead of 1500GP

 

[Horwath]

Did he Carry 326 while doing something like casually rocking out in a mosh pit, boxing a full match, playing basketball for several hours, etc? I picked a range of normal activities that might somewhat approximate adventuring levels of exertion but always thought that those weightlifting contests tend to be a very small number of lifts while doing nothing else and remembering in place during the lift. That range of activities while "carrying around 326 pounds is a critical distraction because @Yaarel was talking about the str x15 "carry" a & 5e character can "lift"twice that allowing a strength 8 wizard to "lift"240 with ease or casually spend the day wandering unconcerned through the great library uphill in the snow with ease while carrying 120 pounds of books like it was nothing. A strength 20 character at the other end of the spectrum can "lift" 600 pounds or double that with powerful build

I was talking about formula for "weightlifting skill" and benchpress weight that was stated.

 

[Yaarel]

this formula does not work as world record holder, Jimmy Kolb is 148Kg(326lb)

The formula is working as intended.


In the case of attempting to D&D-ize Jimmy Kolb: he is 5'5. Much of his 326 lb bodyweight is body fat, perhaps over 100 lb. It is common for powerlifters to have about 30% body fat. In addition, he has a burly physique, broader than the Bodybuilder Physique.

His lean weight, minus the additional fat, is perhaps 200 lb.

His Strength Score is 18, thus +4 Strength. He is world class among humans. I consider a 20 Score to be superhuman.

Lift (1,401 lb) = (2 + 4 Strength + Proficiency Expertise) × ½ (200 lb Bodyweight)
2,802/200 = (6 + Proficiency Expertise)
Proficiency Expertise ≈ 14 − 6
Proficiency Expertise ≈ 8
Proficiency ≈ 4

With +4 Proficiency, D&D Kolb approximates the Master tier (levels 9 thru 12).

I consider the Grandmaster tier (levels 13 thru 16) and the Legend tier (17 thru 20) to be superhuman. Tho Grandmaster might be rarely possible.

Edit: If his lean weight is about 180 lb, his Proficiency would be +5, thus within the Grandmaster tier.

 

[Yaarel]

For the abilities, the important need is to disconnect Strength Athletics "mobility" checks (including parkour, climbing, balancing, jumping, landing, tumbling, running, etcetera) from both Strength Weightlifting and Dexterity Sleight manual dexterity.

This mobile Athletics skill requires some physical Strength Weightlifting, such as when hanging by ones fingers, in order to pull ones own weight up over a ledge. Training in Athletics can assume that one is strong enough to maneuver ones own body weight around. But it wouldnt help for Carrying heavy loads beyond ones own body. To be a powerlifter requires training in the Weightlifting skill.

The Dexterity ability continues to represent both "hand-eye" coordination and cautious precision. For example, wielding a rapier is rapid hand-eye coordination. The hand-eye allows for the use of finesse weapons. The rapierfighter can stand with body motionless, while the hand flings the rapier point around. The hand-eye fine motor skills likewise allow for a AC bonus, from blocking attacks (deflecting, parrying, shielding, etcetera), even if the body remains in place.

The Stealth skill is a special use of the cautious precision of Dexterity.

Ranged weapons typically rely on Dexterity, like aiming a crossbow (or gun) is slow, steady, cautious precision. The longbow is a Heavy weapon. Probably, Heavy weapons should require a minimum Strength to wield it. In the case of the longbow, one needs Strength to draw its string fully and properly, but it is nevertheless the Dexterity ability that carefully aims it for the d20 attack. There can be such thing as a special "strength bow", that add the Strength to the damage, but it remains the Dexterity that makes the attack.

Thrown weapons continue to utilize Strength. Example, hurling a spear requires the entire body to transfer its momentum. The Strength ability itself is agile and able to balance and hurl the spear accurately in this way.

Dexterity would no longer do "balance". Balance is more so part of the overall body kinesiology of the Strength ability.

(Because Strength Athletics leaps, dodges, tumbles, and climbs, its mobility gains the AC bonus − tho how this would interact with the option of Heavy Armor or the Dexterity AC bonus still needs to sort out.)

The Monk for a class feature would continue to use Dexterity instead of Strength for all mobile Athletics checks. The flavor here is a special precision use of ki force.

Probably, the Initiative check should be a Perception check, and noticing in time any threats happening. (Balancing and sorting Wisdom and Intelligence is a separate discussion.)

 

[Scott Christian]

For the abilities, the important need is to disconnect Strength Athletics "mobility" checks (including parkour, climbing, balancing, jumping, landing, tumbling, running, etcetera) from both Strength Weightlifting and Dexterity Sleight manual dexterity.

This mobile Athletics skill requires some physical Strength Weightlifting, such as when hanging by ones fingers, in order to pull ones own weight up over a ledge. Training in Athletics can assume that one is strong enough to maneuver ones own body weight around. But it wouldnt help for Carrying heavy loads beyond ones own body. To be a powerlifter requires training in the Weightlifting skill.

The Dexterity ability continues to represent both "hand-eye" coordination and cautious precision. For example, wielding a rapier is rapid hand-eye coordination. The hand-eye allows for the use of finesse weapons. The rapierfighter can stand with body motionless, while the hand flings the rapier point around. The hand-eye fine motor skills likewise allow for a AC bonus, from blocking attacks (deflecting, parrying, shielding, etcetera), even if the body remains in place.

Most players want their super-buff PC to be great at "physical" things. They sacrificed intelligence, wisdom, charisma, and either con or dex to be good at "physical things." Physical things can be climbing, like the silly Fezik (Andre the Giant) scene in The Princess Bride.

Most players want their super-nimble PC to be great at "physical things." They sacrificed They sacrificed intelligence, wisdom, charisma, and either con or strength to be good at "physical things." Physical things can be climbing, like the silly Wesley scene in The Princess Bride.

The easiest way for this to happen is to teach DMs to actually read the rulebook; you can call for a dex or strength climb check. It does not matter.

In real life, balance, jumping, lifting, etc. is all intertwined. There is no need to separate all of it into smaller categories because its returns in realism doesn't outweigh its limitations to characterization.

 

[tetrasodium]

Most players want their super-buff PC to be great at "physical" things. They sacrificed intelligence, wisdom, charisma, and either con or dex to be good at "physical things." Physical things can be climbing, like the silly Fezik (Andre the Giant) scene in The Princess Bride.

Most players want their super-nimble PC to be great at "physical things." They sacrificed They sacrificed intelligence, wisdom, charisma, and either con or strength to be good at "physical things." Physical things can be climbing, like the silly Wesley scene in The Princess Bride.

The easiest way for this to happen is to teach DMs to actually read the rulebook; you can call for a dex or strength climb check. It does not matter.

In real life, balance, jumping, lifting, etc. is all intertwined. There is no need to separate all of it into smaller categories because its returns in realism doesn't outweigh its limitations to characterization.

The way to fix that is to undo some of the excessive simplifications & streamlining efforts that 5e made or kept from editions like 4e without the 4e supporting elements. A great many of those impact the relative value of strength & dexterity to a significant degree

 

[Scott Christian]

The way to fix that is to undo some of the excessive simplifications & streamlining efforts that 5e made or kept from editions like 4e without the 4e supporting elements. A great many of those impact the relative value of strength & dexterity to a significant degree

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. From my experience at D&D tables, these simplifications only help improve the game's overall objective: high-fantasy-superheroism. For other systems, these streamlines may actually hurt the game's end product. But for D&D...

 

[tetrasodium]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. From my experience at D&D tables, these simplifications only help improve the game's overall objective: high-fantasy-superheroism. For other systems, these streamlines may actually hurt the game's end product. But for D&D...

Agree to disagree indeed, but you are wrong about that bold bit. Super heroes often make 2e and 3.x levels of distinct niche/niche protection look downright jack of all trades. There are very few super heroes/villains who are as broadly "do most anything" as 5e PCs. The few who do have those capabilities tend to have them at severe costs like memories (that ome Aquaman/maybe green arrow villain ), totally mundane and reliant on gear like Batman, or are a poster child for one-upmanship Gary stu type heroes like Superman.

 

[Scott Christian]

Agree to disagree indeed, but you are wrong about that bold bit. Super heroes often make 2e and 3.x levels of distinct niche/niche protection look downright jack of all trades. There are very few super heroes/villains who are as broadly "do most anything" as 5e PCs. The few who do have those capabilities tend to have them at severe costs like memories (that ome Aquaman/maybe green arrow villain ), totally mundane and reliant on gear like Batman, or are a poster child for one-upmanship Gary stu type heroes like Superman.

I am fine with that definition if that's how you view it. It doesn't change my premise, but I understand what you are saying.