Skill based magic system

[JDRay]

Re: Spell Ranks

Wizards ... At each level the caster gets eight more points to distribute.

Sorcerers ... They then get six points to distribute per casting class level.

Shouldn't smarter Wizards and more charismatic Sorcerers get better faster? I.e., shouldn't it be something like Wiz: 6 + Int mod and Sor: 4 + Int mod?

 

[Oni]

The problem with that is that it creates a much wider gap between higher stats and lower stats than would probably be a good idea, in a game where having high stats is a good thing, it only serves to make that even more true.

 

[Mahiro Satsu]

JDRay

You might be right, i made that up in 3 seconds while at work. It was a bad day at work...

 

[SableWyvern]

Having begun to look at my own idea in more detail, it has become apparent what a large task it actually is (especially given that I don't even intend to use it for my own game).

Anyway, I'll try and have the wiz/sorcerer lists done within the next week and posted here.

The biggest problem will be compiling lists that don't have huge gaps (ie, was looking at puting a Universal list together, but if I don't add anything else in, there won't be any spells between ranks 4 (universal cantrips taking up positions 1 through 4) and 12 (where you get Permanency)).

Anyone with ideas what themes to use, feel free to post your suggestions.

Some fairly obvious ones include fire, cold, electricity etc..., counter-magic, physical enhancement (ie, stat buffing), mind control, travel, illusion, protection, necromancy (specifically, spells that control/create undead), summoning and physical creation. Some of these may need to be split into sub-lists. (eg, way too many illusion spells to fit a single list).

 

[LostSoul]

Have spells overlap group to group. It might make things easier... that way you could have groups for everything under the sun. Water, Fertility, Blood, blah blah blah.

You could also slightly change the "colour" of the spell so it fits under your grouping.

 

[SableWyvern]

Well, here's a start.

The following lists are arranged with each spell listed at its appropriate rank, and its default level following in brackets.

Keep in mind that I am assuming max ranks = caster level + 3.

As for little things like how many skill points, what other effects skill value in a list might have, spells per day and the like - someone else can come up with bright ideas for that.


VISIONS
1. Detect Poison (C)
2. Detect Secret Doors (1)
3. Detect Undead (1)
4. True Strike (1)
6. Locate Object (2)
7. See Invisible (2)
8. Clairvoyance/Clairaudience (3)
9. Detect Scrying (4)
10. Scrying (4)
11. Locate Creature (4)
12. Dream (5) + Nightmare (5)
14. Legend Lore (6)
15. True Seeing (6)
16. Vision (7)
17. Greater Scrying (7)
18. Discern Location (8)
20. Foresight (9)

FORCE
1. Tenser's Floating Disc (1)
2. Unseen Servant (1)
3. Mage Armour (1)
4. Shield (1)
5. Magic Missile (1)
6. Spectral Hand (2)
7. Protection from Arrows (2)
10. Otiluke's Resilient Sphere (4)
11. Evard's Black Tentacles (4)
12. Bigby's Interposing Hand (5)
13. Wall of Force (5)
14. Bigby's Forceful Hand (6)
15. Bigby's Grasping Hand (7)
16. Force Cage (7)
17. Mordenkainen's Sword (7)
18. Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere (8)
19. Bigby's Clenched Fist (8)
20. Bigby's Crushing Hand (9)

COUNTERMAGIC
2. Nystal's Undetectable Aura (1)
5. Obscure Object (2)
7. Misdirection (2)
8. Dispel Magic (3)
9. Nondetection (3)
10. Remove Curse (4)
11. Minor Globe of Invulnerability (4)
12. False Vision (5)
13. Antimagic Field (6)
14. Greater Dispelling (6)
15. Globe of Invulnerability (6)
16. Sequester (7)
18. Mind Blank (8)
19. Screen (8)
20. Mordenkainen's Disjunction (9)

ARCANE WARDS
1. Alarm (1)
2. Erase (1)
3. Hold Portal (1)
5. Leomund's Trap (2)
6. Arcane Lock (2)
7. Secret Page (3)
8. Illusory Script (3)
9. Explosive Runes (3)
12. Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound (5)
14. Guards and Wards (6)
17. Symbol (8)

LIGHT
1. Dancing Lights (C)
2. Light (C)
3. Flare (C)
4. Colour Spray (1)
6. Daylight (2)
8. Invisibility (2)
10. Invisibility Sphere (3)
11. Rainbow Pattern (4)
12. Improved Invisibility (4)
14. Mislead (6)
16. Prismatic Spray (7)
17. Mass Invisibility (7)
18. Prismatic Wall (8)
20. Prismatic Sphere (9)

All invis spells exept Mass- come 2 levels late on this list. On the other hand, there are a lot of early spells, (1st level caster can get 3 cantrips, one 1st and one 2nd) and default invis is, IMHO, probably too low level for its utility anyway.

COMMAND
2. Hypnotism (1)
4. Charm Person (1)
6. Hypnotic Pattern (2)
8. Suggestion (3)
9. Hold Person (3)
10. Lesser Geas (4)
11. Charm Monster (4)
12. Dominate Person (5)
13. Hold Monster (5)
14. Geas/Quest (6)
15. Mass Suggestion (6)
16. Power Word, Stun (7)
18. Mass Charm (8)
20. Dominate Monster (9)
21. Power Word, KIll (9)

Slow early progression, but a pretty useful offensive list.

MIND DISEASE
1. Daze (C)
2. Sleep (1)
4. Cause Fear (1)
6. Tasha's Hideous [Uncontrollable] Laughter (2)
7. Scare (2)
9. Confusion (4)
10. Fear (4)
11. Emotion (4)
12. Mind Fog (5)
13. Magic Jar (5)
16. Insanity (7)
18. Otto's Irresistible Dance (8)
19. Trap Sould (8)
20. Soul Bind (9)

STORMS
2. Obscuring Mist (1)
5. Fog Cloud (2)
6. Wind Wall (3)
7. Gust of Wind (3)
8. Stinking Cloud (3)
9. Lightning Bolt (3)
10. Solid Fog (4)
11. Ice Storm (4)
12. Cloud Kill (5)
13. Acid Fog (6)
14.Control Weather (6)
15. Chain Lightning (6)

This list a few spells early, but lacks upper-end utility.

RESISTANCE
1. Resistance (C)
3. Endure Elements (1)
5. Protection from G/E/L/C (1)
6. Resist Elements (2)
8. Protection from Elements (3)
9. Magic Circle Against G/E/L/C (3)
10. Stoneskin (4)
14. Repulsion (6)
16. Spell Turning (7)
17. Antipathy (7)
18. Protection From Spells (8)

I threw a few spells in here that I had originally slotted into Countermagic, just to fill out the list a bit.

UTILITY
1. Read Magic + Arcane Mark (C)
2. Detect Magic + Prestidigitation (C)
3. Message (1)
4. Comprehend Languages (1)
5. Identify (1)
6. Magic Mouth (2)
7. Whispering Wind (2)
8. Tongues (3)
10. Rary's Mnemonic Enhancer (4)
11. Rary's Telepathic Bond (5)
12. Sending (5)
13. Permancency (5)
14. Analyse Dweomer (7)
15. Mordenkainen's Lucubration (6)
16. Contingency (6)
17. Limited Wish (7)
21. Wish (9)

This list comprises most Universal magic, plus a lot of other stuff of generic use that doesn't obviously fit elsewhere. To try and get things to fit, quite a few spells on the list are now available earlier than the default, although the the wishes come a level later. This list was a nightmare to put together, so go easy .

FIRE
2. Burning Hands (1)
5. Continual Flame (2)
6. Flaming Sphere (2)
7. Pyrotechnics (2)
8. Flame Arrow (3)
9. Fireball (3)
10. Firetrap (4)
11. Wall of Fire (4)
12. Fire Shield (4)
16. Delayed Blast Fireball (7)
18. Sunburst (8)
19. Incendiary Cloud (8)
20. Meteor Swarm (9)

CURSES
2. Chill Touch (1)
4. Ray of Enfeeblement (1)
6. Ghoul Touch (2)
7. Blindness/Deafness (2)
8. Vampiric Touch (3)
9. Slow (3)
10. Contagion (4)
11. Enervation (4)
12. Bestow Curse (4)
13. Feeblemind (5)
14. Eyebite (6)
15. Circle of Death (6)
16. Finger of Death (7)
18. Horrid Wilting (8)
19. Binding (8)
20. Energy Drain (9)
21. Wail of the Banshee (9)

SUMMONS
2. Mount (1)
4. Summon Monster I (1)
6. Summon Monster II (2)
7. Summon Swarm (2)
8. Summon Monster III (3)
9. Phantom Steed (3)
10. Summon Monster IV (4)
11. Dismissal (4)
12. Summon Monster V (5)
13. Lesser Planar Binding (5)
14. Summon Monster VI (6)
15. Planar Binding (6)
16. Summon Monster VII (7)
17. Banishment (7)
18. Summon Monster VIII (8)
19. Greater Planar Binding (8)
20. Summon Monster IX (9)

TRANSFORMATION
2. Enlarge/Reduce (1)
6. Change Self (2)
7. Water Breating (3)
8. Shrink Item (3)
9. Gaseous Form (3)
10. Polymorph Other (4)
11. Polymorph Self (4)
12. Mud to Rock + Rock to Mud (5)
13. Animal Growth (5)
14. Flesh to Stone + Stone to Flesh (6)
15. Disintegrate (6)
16. Statue (7)
17. Clone (8)
18. Iron Body (8)
19. Polymorph Any (8)
20. Shapechange (9)

PHYSICAL MANIPULATION
1. Mending + Ghost Sound (C)
2. Mending (C)
3. Open/Close (C)
4. Ventriloquism (1)
5. Animate Rope (1)
6. Knock (2)
7. Shatter (2)
8. Gentle Repose (3)
10. Shout (4)
12. Telekinesis (5)
13. Passwall (5)
14. Move Earth (6)
16. Reverse Gravity (7)
20. Temporal Stasis (9)
21. Time Stop (9)

CREATION
3. Grease (1)
6. Web (2)
7. Glitterdust (2)
8. Leomund's Tiny Hut (3)
9. Wall of Ice (4)
10. Leomund's Secure Shelter (4)
11. Minor Creation (4)
12. Fabricate (5)
13. Major Creation (5)
14. Wall of Iron + Wall of Stone (5)

SHADOW MAGIC
5. Darkness (2)
6. Blur (2)
8. Displacement (3)
10. Phantasmal Killer (4)
11. Shadow Conjuration (4)
12. Shadow Evocation (5)
13. Greater Shadow Conjuration (5)
14. Greater Shadow Evocation (6)
15. Shades (6)
16. Veil (6)
17. Shadow Walk (7)
18. Ethereal Jaunt (7)
19. Etherealness (8)
20. Weird (9)

Pulled a few spells out of Light to fill this list out at the lower levels.

ILLUSION
2. Change Self (1)
4. Silent Image (1)
6. Mirror Image (2)
7. Minor Image (2)
8. Major Image (3)
9. Illusory Wall (4)
10. Hallucinatory Terrain (4)
11. Persistent Image (5)
12. Seeming (5)
13. Mirage Arcana (5)
14. Programmed Image (6)
15. Permanent Image (6)
16. Project Image (6)
17. Simalacrum (7)

MOVEMENT
2. Jump (1)
3. Featherfall (1)
4. Expeditious Retreat (1)
5. Spider Climb (1)
6. Levitate (2)
8. Fly (3)
9. Haste (3)
14. Mass Haste (6)

Obvious problems here with the jump from 3rd to 6th.

BASIC DIMENSIONAL MANIPULATION
6. Rope Trick (2)
8. Blink (3)
10. Dimensional Anchor (4)
11. Dimension Door (4)
12. Leomund's Secret Chest (5)
13. Contact Other Plane (5)
14. Teleport (5)

ADVANCED DIMENSIONAL MANIPULATION A
16. Drawmij's Instant Summons (7)
17. Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion (7)
18. Plane Shift (7)
19. Maze (8)
20. Freedom + Imprisonment (9)
21. Refuge (9)

ADVANCED DIMENSIONAL MANIPULATION B
16. Vanish (7)
17. Telport Without Error (7)
18. Phase Door (7)
19. Teleport Circle (9)
20. Astral Projection (9)
21. Gate (9)

Problem: the dimensional spells are few at low levels, many at high. Thus, I decided to split them into three lists. Characters can count ranks from Basic Dimensional Manipulation towards both advanced lists. However, the Basic list is capped at 14 ranks.

IOW, once a character gets to 14 ranks in BDM, he can begin developing ranks in ADM-A and ADM-B. The first purchased rank in both ADM-A and ADM-B will be 15.

If anyone has a better solution, I'd be happy to hear it.



OTHER SPELLS
Sending (5)
Demand (8)
Ray of Frost (C)
Shocking Grasp (1)
Melf's Acid Arrow (2)
Cone of Cold (5)
Otiluke's Freezing Sphere (6)

I don't have a viable spot for these yet.

NOTES ON PLACEMENT OF SPELLS
When selecting spots for spells, I worked on the following:
Cantrips/Level 1: Ranks 1 - 5
Level 2: Ranks 6 - 7
Level 3: Ranks 8 - 9
Level 4: Ranks 10 - 11
Level 5: Ranks 12 - 13
Level 6: Ranks 14 - 15
Level 7: Ranks 16 - 17
Level 8: Ranks 18 - 19
Level 9: Ranks 20 - 21

Occasionally a spell appears higher or lower than its level indicates; in almost all circumstances never more than one rank outside the standard. Maintaining this placement mechanic is the most difficult task when putting lists together. When offering suggestions, keep in mind that having more than two spells of the same level (above level 1) causes some difficulty; having many same-level groups makes the task nigh on impossible - unless there are enough to warrant splitting the list into two.

I have avoiding listing two spells at the same rank within a list. Exceptions are for Cantrips, spells that are reverses of each other, and for Wall of Stone/Iron. In the latter case, the spells are very similar, and are placed higher than their standard position.


So, what've you all got to say?

 

[JDRay]

Dumb question

Okay, dumb question time:

What do the numbers leading the lists mean? At first I thought they were levels, but that stopped making sense. Then I had another idea, but it was shortly quashed.

So, can someone explain in really slow terms for an old geezer how to interpret one of these lists?

Thanks a bunch.

 

[Melkor Lord Of ALL!]

JDRay, these numbers mean skill ranks.

Great work, SableWyvern, what do you think about treating Divine Spells in similar way( maybe Gods can have fovored Skills instead of Domains)?

 

[WSmith]

Sable Wyvern, I think you just singlehandedly created the magic system for 4th edition D&D.

Actually this is a great start. I am busy today, but will think about applying the concept later this evening.

 

[00]

My skill based magic system

http://people.tamu.edu/~haferka/

Hopefully that link will work.

I crated another thread, since my system is so different.