Sneak attack against prone opponents

[Mystern]

If a rogue trips an opponent with the improved trip feat does he get sneak attack damage on the free attack? How about if an opponent stands up from prone does the rogue get sneak attack damage on the attack of opportunity?

My ultimate goal is to make a spiked chain rogue. I know it's a ton of feats but I think I can pull it off with the house rules we have involving feats. However it would be completely pointless to do so if I don't get sneak attack damage when I make an attack after tripping. My gut says yes, there is sneak attack damage because when a character is prone they have no dex, but my friend says no because the opponent is only denied his dex when he is prone not when he is in the process of entering or leaving a prone state. If that is the case, then I wouldn't get sneak attack dmg from the attack of opportunity when the opponent stands up but wouldn't I still get sneak attack dmg on the free attack from improved trip because the opponent is considered prone when I make the attack?

 

[billd91]

I'm not finding anything that says a prone character is denied his Dex bonus, so I'd say no sneak attack.

 

[shilsen]

As billd91 noted, both your friend and you are wrong. A prone character retains his Dex bonus to AC so you don't get sneak attack damage at all.

 

[akbearfoot]

The only effect being prone has is -4 on attack rolls, and +4 bonus on opponents attack rolls to hit you, and I think ranged attackers actually get a penalty to hit you...no mention of dex penalties, so no sneak attack.

I believe that you do get the +4 prone bonus to hit him on both your free attack and your AOO though, which is great in and of itself. Note however that you cannot re-trip him as he stands up, since hes still considered prone when you attack him, and its kinda hard to trip someone whos already on his arse.

 

[Mystern]

okay, so an opponent is not denied dex when they are prone. aside from the possibilities for flanking, is there any point to using a spiked chain as a rogue? i suppose i could use the feint ability. in theory could i use the spiked chain to make a trip attempt as an attack of opportunity, they fall prone i get another attack. then they stand up and i get another attack of opportunity then that ends their turn (because they have used both of their actions). then it's my turn and i feint and take a five foot step back. their turn they move up and i make my trip attempt and on my free attack i get sneak attack because i feinted the turn before? would i also get my sneak attack on my attack of opportunity or does feinting only deny dex for one attack?

 

[Mistwell]

okay, so an opponent is not denied dex when they are prone. aside from the possibilities for flanking, is there any point to using a spiked chain as a rogue?

Well you said aside from flanking, but just to make sure, you know that reach weapons threaten a LOT more squares than non-reach weapons, right? Which means you can flank from a lot more squares (even ones you wouldn't normally expect to flank from, like when you are diagnol from a target and 10 feet away you can flank with someone not diagnol to that opponent).

My rogue uses a great spear, and it's very effective. Don't worry about feinting, the reach weapon alone allows you to arrange for a flank sneak attack most of the time.

 

[billd91]

aside from the possibilities for flanking, is there any point to using a spiked chain as a rogue?

Improved Trip allows the rogue to convert a typical attack to a touch attack, possibly followed by a typical attack at a net +4 bonus. While not foolproof by any means, it can help a rogue's BAB hit a high AC opponent more often.
And, if the tripping is routinely successful, it keeps enemies from getting multiple attacks. A pretty good benefit against a high level fighter.

 

[Kat']

And, if the tripping is routinely successful, it keeps enemies from getting multiple attacks. A pretty good benefit against a high level fighter.

Yeah, the difficult part here being ROUTINELY successful. A Trip check is based on Strength, which usually isn't the Rogue's highest stat. You can have a high-level Rogue with 14 Str or less, while a high-level fighter will most probably have at least 24. That's +6 to your Trip checks (counting the bonus from Improved Trip) vs. +7 fo the Fighter. Sure, it's still better than Grapple, but I don't think you'll routinely trip high-level fighters with a rogue, even less if, say, you're a gnome and he's a dwarf. Wizards, on the other hand...

 

[Darklone]

Yeah, the difficult part here being ROUTINELY successful. A Trip check is based on Strength, which usually isn't the Rogue's highest stat. You can have a high-level Rogue with 14 Str or less, while a high-level fighter will most probably have at least 24. That's +6 to your Trip checks (counting the bonus from Improved Trip) vs. +7 fo the Fighter. Sure, it's still better than Grapple, but I don't think you'll routinely trip high-level fighters with a rogue, even less if, say, you're a gnome and he's a dwarf. Wizards, on the other hand...

Well, apart from being small... which is a real silly idea for a tripper... go enlarged and enjoy the bonus from I Trip and perhaps some other bonuses... there are many buff spells that help these things.

 

[Mystern]

Well, apart from being small... which is a real silly idea for a tripper... go enlarged and enjoy the bonus from I Trip and perhaps some other bonuses... there are many buff spells that help these things.

yep there are in a world where magic has not been outlawed . . . as is the case with this campaign. i tried sneaking it in and i was killed shortly thereafter.