So, about defenses aka. PHB2 defenses feats

[DracoSuave]

True, to be fair, all three would give +9/+7/+6 vs +9/+9/+4.

But, it avoids the point. Getting auto-hit is a product of character design, feat/power choice, and holding to certain sacred cows of char-op (secondary must be as high as possible). Balanced NADs is -possible-, and -plausible-, and the cost is not as high as you make it out to be.

Of course, now I have to go fetch Open Grave and compare attack bonuses to defenses.

 

[KarinsDad]

True, to be fair, all three would give +9/+7/+6 vs +9/+9/+4.

But, it avoids the point. Getting auto-hit is a product of character design, feat/power choice, and holding to certain sacred cows of char-op (secondary must be as high as possible). Balanced NADs is -possible-, and -plausible-, and the cost is not as high as you make it out to be.

+9/+7/+6 is fine, but the two lower ones are going to get hit a LOT. Even with 3 feats thrown in.

Especially with 3 feats thrown in.

3 FREAKING feats and still 80+% or more with higher level creatures hit.

That, quite frankly, is an insanely high percentage of the time considering that 3 feats were thrown at the problem.


Although the Ancient Red Dragon does not hit NADs every single round, he would hit (on average) the +11, +9, +6 (once class mod and racial ability scores are added) on a 7, a 5, and a 2. Balancing that last NAD did nothing. Adding a feat to the last NAD did nothing. Same level creature.

And this creature can do this more than 2 rounds out of every 3 on average (because his first two are recharged, then one recharges 2 out of 3 rounds, one has a secondary NAD hit, and there is also a once per encounter NAD attack). He can attack NADs >75% of rounds in encounters (and one of his attacks is against multiple foes). For example, in a 16 round fight, he would be able to attack NADs 13 times on average (2 immediately, 1 bloodied, 10 recharges in 15 rounds). Flying around and doing this is a lot better tactic than staying in melee range for any significant amount of time (he actually should do both and mix it up, but decreasing the number of counterattacks by staying away from the melee opponents and concentrating fire on the ranged opponents is a decent tactic).

 

[KarinsDad]

Of course, now I have to go fetch Open Grave and compare attack bonuses to defenses.

Yes, Vecna hits the +11, +9, +6 PC on a 3, 2, and 2. Course, he should hit a lot, but a group of 5 PCs especially designed to take him on would still lose big time. I suspect a group of 8 or even 10 PCs might still lose to him. Being able to banish PCs every other round, and they return partial enemies to their former allies, and hitting on a 2 while at it. His aura alone can crush a PC in a matter of rounds.

The PCs would need some major mojo to even compete.

 

[DracoSuave]

Fighting Vecna is an n+5 level encounter for five party level 30 members, and it's generally the sort of encounter that doesn't take you by surprise. Fighting a God isn't exactly Random Encounter country. n+5 encounters are one level higher than what the DMG describes as the upper limit of hard.

You go on prepared, either with equipment designed for this encounter, or funeral arangements planned out.

The PCs would need some major mojo to even compete.

Yes. And as such, they should.

 

[CapnZapp]

Can't believe you're still bickering about this.

To me it is completely obvious the game wasn't designed to have fights where (N)PCs routinely can't miss (miss only on a one).

That monster's attack bonuses equal the poor (or even good) defenses of a player is to me a clear indicator something is wrong, and the presence of those PHB2 feats just seals the deal.

Can we move over to discussing something more worth-while instead, like actually figuring out a better way of fixing the math than these feats?

For instance, as we all know, it's much better to specialize than to be general. So, wouldn't it be better to restrict these feats to your two worse defenses only (and not your best save)? And if so, how do we phrase such a restriction?

Thank you.

 

[DracoSuave]

Can't believe you're still bickering about this.

To me it is completely obvious the game wasn't designed to have fights where (N)PCs routinely can't miss (miss only on a one).

It wasn't. But continuing on:

That monster's attack bonuses equal the poor (or even good) defenses of a player is to me a clear indicator something is wrong, and the presence of those PHB2 feats just seals the deal.

They don't, but thanks for this statement. Even the red dragon hits the good on a 7, and only with powers it doesn't spam or bring out all the time. Plus, it's a soldier and therefore accurate. The average for that level would be a 9 before applying situational bonuses that a level 30 party can bring to muster.

Can we move over to discussing something more worth-while instead, like actually figuring out a better way of fixing the math than these feats?

Again, -prove- the math is broken. The most anyone's done is do comparisons with Red Dragon and Vecna, hardly a fair comparison given one is a soldier, and the other is level 35.

For instance, as we all know, it's much better to specialize than to be general.

Not necessarily. For example, if specialization turns you into paper and makes it so that you can do nothing, then it's a liability. If generalization can be done without cost to your offense, then it's often better than specializing to little gain.

So, wouldn't it be better to restrict these feats to your two worse defenses only (and not your best save)? And if so, how do we phrase such a restriction?

Again, prove that the system is broken at high levels. Run some combats. Do some tests. Take all factors into account. Look at what powers are available, and run a combat with them.

Thank you.

 

[Bayuer]

Note. Balanced NADs. And they are balanced at the level of the highest NAD.

Argue that if you like, the proof is above.

'But you can't!'

But I did. Done. And in a way that is perfectly viable.

Ok you balanced them. But that just give us a strong example that when you try it, all your nads are being to hit on 3 on die, not one on 6 end other at lower. Do you realy can't see this? This makes things even worst for your character...

Level 11 19/16/16 One booster feat = +4/+5/+3
Level 14 20/17/16 Two booster feat = +5/+5/+5
Level 18 21/17/17 Two booster = +5/+5/+5

Now if you will put here racial bonuses you can make it +7/+6/+5. With Demigod. +7/+7/+6, but this is so, so specific build.

+7/+7/+6.
No, no Demigod necessary.

You used feats... LOL! That means you will be hitted on 3 on 30 lvl instead of 2. All your NADs will be. Man. This is worst proof ever made. Don't you see that we are talking here about that this feats fix math. Add 3 epic feats to this and you will be hitted on 7. Now this is better but no good anyway. But you must spend 4(!) feats to maintain this... 3 +2 paragon feats earlier. Don't forget Expertise and probably armor/shield feats! Yeah man... They shouldn't gave us 18 feat if almost half of them must be spend to take must-have feats.

Prove you need a 16 in your secondary at level 1 before racial adjustments. You can't. Because the effect is -secondary.- Abandon this dogma that your secondary must be tricked to the max. That is the -real- math problem here. You are pimping your offense at the expense of your defense.

I wasn't talking about secondary stats. I was talking about other stats. As an exampled Wizard. And when I was talking high I was talking about 12 in that stats. When you start with 16/16/13/11/10/8 (with is nice array enyway) you will have only 3 high stats and other are not important. There are some build than need 4 stats (or even 5). Not at 16 of course but for an example if you are playing Avenger (censure of retribution) and have high WIS and INT you probably will need DEX and CON to to have it at 12 at least. If you must use only 3 high stats (maybe that sounds fair) you lost customization of characters. If you make customization your NADs will suffer. That's not balance.

Again, pay attention. +7/+7/+6 before racials and class.

And AC isn't hit on 9 if you're taking armor feats.

And comparing average hits of monsters' encounter powers is Fear and Loathing. They CANNOT HIT YOU EVERY ROUND WITH ENCOUNTER POWERS.

Man. If you are using feats in you build, and that char is hitted on 5 with them... That's just speak for itself. Oh, if you take amor feat! Wow. I forget that tax feat is another rule about 4E. You don't take feats you want. You take feats that make math workable...

Let's se. Red Dragon have 4 powers that hit the NADs. 3 of them are blasts. 2 of them are recharge 5 (one blast)... Yeah, that's looking like no options for dragon to use. But if you want more monsters hitting NADs look at Dracolich. He have immdiate interupt power that stunns characters when he use melee attacks.

Well, find some level 30 non-solo monsters in the MM. Do it. YOU CANNOT.

I don't have to! Are you blind? 3 persons already told you that solos or elites don't have better attacks!

Good point. I should use the normal soldiers at level 30. How many are there? Zero? Good point indeed

Well there is a solo soldier at 30 lvl. Wow. He just pope up and showed at my MM. Miracle.
Now we have a nice tool called Compendium, and we know that MM2 will be printed this month. Compendium shows 6 monsters that are 30 level. 4 more for you to look at them. And why you are still talking about normal monsters. Look at lower level monsters and they have sometimes more broken NADs attacks than this solos.

Well, show me the ability of those solos to hit your NADS every round at will. You can't. Because they don't have at-wills like that.

But that's okay. We can -pretend- their non-at-will powers are launched every round at will if it makes you happy.

I won't.

Well look at Dracolich. Isn't enough? I understand. You need a monster at every level of epic tier that have at-will stunn attacks or saying about that isn't true. Well, use you MM. Lich 24lvl (recharg 5 stunn); Gibbering Orb (free action - dazes; I know it's not a stunn effects but it just look so nice). Aboleth Overseer (first daze, then dominate). I don't have time to convert MM now. This are just smaple monsters I faced.

You -can- balance your NADs out, and with negligible loss to your utility. In fact, your utility might increase because the -options- you gain for powers increase.

You balanced your NADs and the same lvl monster hit all you NADs on 5! Amazing. And I have another argument agains 'monster at higher levels sholud be more threatening'. They are. As you can see there are no normal monsters at higher levels. There are only elites and solos. That's it! Here is you proof that mosters power growes.

And to be honest. If now add racial modifiers thats stats will go up to +8/+8/+7. Now you class can grant +2 to one your NADs. +10/+8/+7. Looks good isn't? Well of course it is. You just spend feat to boost your all NADs by 2! But here's the catch. This is 30 lvl build. You sit and make all numbers work. What is the situation on 20 lvl. Not so good. You'r weakes NAD is far far behind. But let's look at the chance of being hit by the Red Dragon... From hitted on 3 we now have hitted on 6, on 4 and on 3! WOW! It's amaizing what you can do with a +2 feats this days. Let's add epic feats here. Hitted on 10, 8 and 7 now this is math I can say it is good! But I have spend 4 feats to boost NADs only. Balance is tricky thing

 

[Jhaelen]

On a totally different tact... is there anyone who thinks it likely that by 30th, a character who has access to the PH2 feats will not have spent 4 of his 16 feats to secure +6 to all 3 of his defenses?

Yep, me. Have you noticed how Bayuver suddenly claims that being hit on a 8 is STILL a problem that needs to be fixed?
So obviously everyone thinking like him won't do it

Well maybe you answered them, but in this huge post fights people can just lose what everybody was trying to say. If you be so kind, please respond to all of my points and we can already end this thread.

You're right. Initially, I though of forking from this thread because of that. Probably would have been better if I had done so.

Anyway, I'm getting mightily bored by this discussion, normally I know better than to engage in such a hotly debated issue, because I simply don't have the time to give it my full attention.
Reiterating the same points over and over doesn't get anyone anywhere. I just don't agree with you guys and that's that.

Consider yourself winning the debate if it makes you happy

 

[KarinsDad]

Again, prove that the system is broken at high levels. Run some combats. Do some tests. Take all factors into account. Look at what powers are available, and run a combat with them.

I did just that.

I ran a 21 level N+3 encounter. After 20 rounds, the BBEG was still not dead. The PCs were hardly ever hitting (16 or 17 typically being needed) and the BBEG was hitting them at will (4 or 5 typically being needed).

I proved it to myself.

The point is, that people such as yourself are making these grandiose claims that do not match the pre-release sweet spot statements of WotC nor do they match the math and are not setting up this type of test yourself.

You tell our POV to prove it when you are unwilling to do so yourself. Pretty weak.

 

[Bayuer]

Yep, me. Have you noticed how Bayuver suddenly claims that being hit on a 8 is STILL a problem that needs to be fixed?
So obviously everyone thinking like him won't do it

You are just my guru now

Hitted on 10, 8 and 7 now this is math I can say it is good! But I have spend 4 feats to boost NADs only. Balance is tricky thing

So from the feats aren't math fix issue we came to I will prove this by not taking this feats, becouse they aren't needed aka. I'm like John Rambo and can take this all on me chest and kill you all! (Wrrghhh! I'm a monster theme in background)