@AbdulAlhazred
Skill feat is just only pseudo-roleplay feat option in game. Linguist may be better and that's it. We don't talk about skill use couse it will need another thread when we can discuss about it's broken ST ie. Skill Challange. Stop making an examples of roleplaying combat consequences, couse it's not the fact, and almost none use such a fights in they games, couse 4E is mostly about attack rolls and damage rolls.
Iron Sky said:
In 13 levels of 4e, I'd say status effects make the combat, not damage - and this only gets more true as the levels go up.
That's true. But...
If DMG don't have enough experience and don't know the game math etc he will make some mistakes when he design the eno
ers. He will put to weak monster and thus the challange will be trival (and most of the DMs do such). Guidlines from DMG are to weak, but they are for non-optimized roleplaying parties I think. In other hand when a such DMG want to make a threat to party he will make deadly encounter mixing monsters thats combat effects work very nice.
The both can be true and in both cases having better defenses is needed. In first example it will not change anything. In second it will give players just fair chances to survive.
One more thing. Don't use n=0 or n+1 encounters as guidlines for challenging fights. Don't do so with solos and too many elities, couse they fail to make they designed role. The true is the more monsters in fight, the more challenging it is. One example here:
- Throw on 20 level party this encounter (we will be using easy Wolf Pack (7 skirmishers of level n-4:
- We got 7 Kuo-Toa Monitors (lvl 16 Skirmisher)
They attack is +19 vs. REF and make you stunned (encounter power) (save ends)
Now let's look at playres DEF:
Highest - 32 (13 on dice to hit), Middle - 29 (10 on dice to hit, Lowest - 25 (6 on dice to hit).
Anyone can easly say. They DEF are quite fine, thus this are monsters 4lvl behind the PCs! But there are 7 of them, and this fight is EASY! Make Let's make them the same lvl +23 vs. REF.
Highest -32 (9 on dice to hit), Middle - 29 (6 on dice to hit), Lowest - 25 (2 on dice to hit). Guidlines tells us that there 5 monsters of level n (the same as team level) is standard fight. You can see that someone with realy weak REF (one example: barbarian) will have a though time in this fight. Other will be hurt too. Only to ones with high REF will have some fun from game!
Well I did an easy/standard fight above. Imagine what will be if this will be a hard fight on n+4 level with controller or artillery as buckup. TPK.
Runestar said:
4 feats for +6 to all defenses. Seems reasonable, too good in fact that I can see many builds wanting them.
And that's the point! The feats are too good to just pretend they are not exist, and I will take Linguist on 25 level couse I'm roleplayer.
DracoSuave said:
You have people using math (but not actual play) to suggest that the game is hard at high levels, and you have people using play to suggest that the game is not hard at high levels.
You think we are some idiots here, gathering to just make some teory fiction posts? Man... This problem wasn't on topic until them from two reasons:
- Not many people are playing high paragon/epic tier games and even if, not everybody pay attention to game math etc. The most players just take what a DM gives to them and they are happy, thus is very good! Couse the game is good to them.
- We didn't have PHB2 feats until now, thus not many people did math crunch and state the math is broken. Now we have evidences about this!
And I must dissapoint you. I was playing almost all levels till then (just not late epic games) and I can tell you my feelings that if my DM will not take my advices seriously he will slain our party many times. I just pointed him that this isn't tactic game DM vs. players, but the cinematic game when we fight and monster are to make the game fun. He stopped using encounters as I gave as an example above and make the fights still challenging but not devastating. Good DMG can always make TPK easily if he knows rules, but this aren't n, or n+1 fights (but this can still happen, go above my encounter example).
Standard fight may look fine. Players will surive them withou any problems, but monster hitting on 2 on dice isn't "well he need that, couse the fights are to easy". It's just a terrible design step and math bug.