So, about Expertise...

[RefinedBean]

My halberd-wielding beastmaster ranger is going to take this feat twice. Bad idea making it applicable to weapon GROUPS, WotC.

This feat will also benefit smaller parties, who don't have as many characters (and therefore powers) to work with when trying to work things out tactically. Especially relevant at higher levels, or so I hear.

 

[deleteme123456]

Without the specific averages, but using the DMG guide that a monster's AC goes up by 1 every level, and assuming the PC's get a +1 (wpn/impl) starting at 3, 8, 13, etc., and boost their primary attack stat at every opportunity, and started with an even stat (go away silly 17 or 19 builds, but 16 or 18 or 20 doesn't matter, you improve at the same RATE as everyone else even if you started behind)...

Between attributes, magic items, and half-level attack bonuses, you stay even except:
Level 5: Behind by 1
Level 11: Behind by 2 (total)
Level 19: Behind by 3 (total) (you can ignore this if you're taking Demigod, etc. at 21)
Level 25: Behind by 4 (3 with Demigod)

So Level 5 / 15 / 25 is a reasonable compromise, spllitting the difference between Level 11 and Level 19. If you do take Demigod (it's still really good), you actually come out slightly ahead of the curve, which is OK consider some crazy defenses and the fact that there are Level 33+ monsters (solos, at that) to be challenged.

Now if you want to actually take the averages, well, knock yourself out, but that's a lot of work unless you have it already in an analyzable form (see the Monster Stats thread).

 

[Ryujin]

My halberd-wielding beastmaster ranger is going to take this feat twice. Bad idea making it applicable to weapon GROUPS, WotC.

You mean to double up on the attack bonus? Feat bonuses don't stack

 

[keterys]

Can someone with a math bent and an obsessive compulsive personality please analyse the averages of all defences in the MM and all average attack bonuses with weapons and implements and then tell me if there is a problem with the math or not?

There are several posts on the subject on this board, but for an easy example - monsters at level 30 have Defense of around 42, while a level 1 has around 13 (the huge math thread from back in the day of all MM monsters supports this). A caster who starts with an 18 stat, adds 1 every opportunity and does not take demigod ends up with (15 + 6 (enh) + 8 (stat) = +29) or needing a 13, while a 1st level character has +4 so needs a 9, or a difference of 4.

That said, it is easier as you get higher level to inflict penalties to AC and defenses, or gain bonuses to your own attacks (combat advantage in particular), so the ongoing debate has been whether attack bonuses were screwed up or intentionally allowed to slip several points to make those other powers required to catch up.

The answer is apparently now available.

The real problem I have is that as a feat it's _ridiculously_ good. If you're 26th level and don't have this, you're crazy. Doesn't matter what class you are (16th and you're just foolish, 6th and you might have more interesting other options even if likely not better ones).

 

[keterys]

You mean to double up on the attack bonus? Feat bonuses don't stack

It's not a feat bonus.

Mind you, it's also pretty clearly not intended to work that way, but infinite oregano shall indeed commence

 

[RefinedBean]

It's not a feat bonus.

Mind you, it's also pretty clearly not intended to work that way, but infinite oregano shall indeed commence

Commence, and taste DELICIOUS.

 

[deleteme123456]

I haven't seen a good confirmation of whether it is or isn't a feat bonus, but you say that pretty confidently so I'll take your word for it. I wouldn't expect it to be.

As said above, in my home games this will be handled by giving everyone the ability passively; for LFR games, unless the feat specifically SAYS you can take it multiple times, even if it does apply to weapon groups, you can't take it multiple times. I wouldn't be surprised to see an update later removing the ability to take it multiple times if it comes down to it. On the other hand, only a very few builds really benefit from taking it multiple times (tempest fighters using double swords... great. just great.)

 

[AngryPurpleCyclops]

Basic attack is an at-will power.

The only at will that counts as a basic attack is magic missile as far as I know. Basic attacks are melee/ranged attacks made without use of a power. The attack at the end of a charge, some attacks granted by warlord powers, and opportunity attacks being the only examples of basic attacks in the game I can think of. (oops there's a quickness sword in the campaign I'm in that allows the rogue to take a basic attack as a daily item power).

If every character takes this as a feat, it basically becomes a core character ability and every PC loses a feat. If that is the case, then this implementation is a mistake. There should be no feats that every PC takes. In fact, if there is a feat that more than 50% of the PCs are taking, I think there is a problem that needs to be addressed. I certainly see these feats (really the same 1 feat masked as 2 feats) as exceeding the 50% mark very quickly. I'll retrain my characters to gain them as soon as I can.

great point. I never considered this point of view but I have to say I agree. I wonder what percentage of pc's take improved init by level 6.

I'd love to hear designers comment on why the feat was made, what they think of everyone assuming it is a must have feat, and what builds might find this feat to be a suboptimal choice.

Certainly at high levels it's impossible to ignore +3 to ATT. Hard to imagine a different feat that increases the effectiveness of all attacks and conditions created by those attacks by 15%.

Possibly because of the Tiefling feat that gives them a feat bonus to attack with fire...

Quite possibly the most unbalance feat in the game. Compared to astral fire, this feat is unbelievably powerful with NO prereq's beyond race.

It's not a feat bonus.

Mind you, it's also pretty clearly not intended to work that way, but infinite oregano shall indeed commence

unfamiliar with infinite oregano, how will you be able to gain stacking with this bonus?

 

[Nightson]

The only at will that counts as a basic attack is magic missile as far as I know. Basic attacks are melee/ranged attacks made without use of a power. The attack at the end of a charge, some attacks granted by warlord powers, and opportunity attacks being the only examples of basic attacks in the game I can think of. (oops there's a quickness sword in the campaign I'm in that allows the rogue to take a basic attack as a daily item power).

PHB pg. 287

Basic Attacks are at-wills

 

[keterys]

Well, in response to the question of whether it was a feat bonus, the following answer was given elsewhere, the full text of the feat in question:

Weapon Expertise
Benefit: Choose a weapon group. You gain +1 bonus to attack rolls with any weapon power you use with a weapon from that group. The bonus increases to +2 at 15th lvl and to +3 at 25th lvl.
Special: You can take this feat more than once. Each time you select this feat, choose another weapon group.

I'll admit that I don't have the book to confirm, personally, so there is some measure of faith going on, but...