So after reading the classes in full what do people think?

[The Little Raven]

No, they're not flat and present mechanics. They're add-ons.

The only mechanics that matter are the ones forced upon you. Gotcha.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

The only mechanics that matter are the ones forced upon you. Gotcha.

Quite frankly, yes. Unless you want to claim fighters are the same as wizards because they can also learn rituals.

 

[Dormain1]

Wizards are just fine, so what if it takes 10mins to cast a ritual to do something you wanted to do i 1 rd, it just means everyone is going to have to hold of the baddies until your finished

I like how passive insight is now your defense against illusions, very nice idea WotC

I like how anyone can learn rituals

and humans get +1 @will power makes them much more powerful

 

[JohnSnow]

Quite frankly, yes. Unless you want to claim fighters are the same as wizards because they can also learn rituals.

I see. So in spite of a plethora of available feats, clearly you would argue that all fighters in Third Edition are the same.

Because, after all, those are just choices they get to make, not real (i.e. forced) mechanics.

Similarly, all 3e clerics are the same because the only difference in them are domains and spell choice. And none of those are default features either.

Or is that somehow "different?"

 

[Darth Cyric]

3e Fighters and Clerics were the same, doncha know? They could both take Power Attack.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

I see. So in spite of a plethora of available feats, clearly you would argue that all fighters in Third Edition are the same.

Because, after all, those are just choices they get to make, not real (i.e. forced) mechanics.

Similarly, all 3e clerics are the same because the only difference in them are domains and spell choice. And none of those are default features either.

Or is that somehow "different?"

No, I'm saying that all baseline fighters are the same. FROM THERE, they do things to make themselves stand out amongst one another.

Likewise, all 4e baseline clerics are the same. They can, FROM THERE, choose to make one another stand out.

I'm just dissapointed they don't stand out right from the start, as I would think your choice of alignment/deity should be *very* important. I can't quite grasp why clerics NEED to have a god of that god doesn't affect their baseline or even give them their powers.

 

[Andor]

There was an entire thread about this before...but the short form is that "creative solution" is another term for "broken" or "hard to adjudicate in game".

In almost every case where a "creative solution" was used, it essentially was an abuse of a power in order to gain benefit WAY beyond its intended purpose.

Even just the above examples can be translated to:
Illusion over a pit: I get the ability to craft an instant, free trap that using the skill rules for trapmaking would have taken multiple days and lots of gold to build. Using the skill rules it would have had a DC 15 to spot that it was a trap, but because it is an illusion, there is no roll at all. Everyone just automatically fails. I gain much better benefit than if I had spent a bunch of skill points instead of one spell.

Throw rope and animate it: Wow, using Animate Rope to entangle someone. That seems a creative use for a spell that animates rope to entangle someone. And infinitely more creative(and useful) than, say, using Tasha's Hideous Laughter to completely incapacitate an enemy.

Transmuting Rock to Mud: Frankly, this isn't creative use of a spell that's specifically designed to do this...so it's not abuse at all.

Summoning a creature to find traps: Here's one. I'll have a 100% chance of finding traps with almost no danger to us OR the ability to summon a monster to help in combat. And it'll be just one of a bunch of abilities I get. Meanwhile, you rogue have a 50% chance of finding and disarming the trap and it might blow up and kill you and it'll be most of your classes entire purpose. Don't worry, I'm not more powerful than you, I'm just the one who comes up with "Creative Solutions".

This is pretty much retarded. Magic is the technology of D&D. If all the most brilliant minds of every race have spent thousands of years studying magic and haven't come up with better ways to do things, then Wizardry is a complete and utter waste of time.

Illusion over the pit complaint? First off the trap making rules in the 3.x DMG are painfully stupid in pursuit of some kind of mythical balance. Why exactly do I need to spend a dozen pounds of gold to make a pit trap that really requires two guys, and afternoon, and a shovel. You do know that cavemen made pit traps big enough to trap Mammoths right? Epiclly stupid rules and crying in defense of them undermines your whole position. Plus, what the hell else could you do with illusions in 3e? They gutted the whole school of magic (a staple of fantasy literature I might add) since it was apparently too difficult for poor newb GMs to deal with as it was!

Summoning a monster to find traps? Why not? We make robots for that exact purpose. They're still cheaper than human lives. And hey guess what? The EOD guys are perfectly happy to let the robots get blowup rather than sticking thier own faces next to the trip wire. Maybe instead of the rogue's player whining that his spotlight is stolen he might contemplate just how much his rogue likes having the same set of facial features for more than a week. Oh, wait, no. I forgot "gettting into character" and "roleplaying" is just for dusty old grognards like me. My bad.

Seriously, what the hell good is magic if it can't be anything more than a grenade. BFD. Why exactly does my wizard need an Int of 20? So he can realize how much better off he would have been as a Ranger? Swell. That really feels like fantasy now.

 

[Nifft]

No, I'm saying that all baseline fighters are the same. FROM THERE, they do things to make themselves stand out amongst one another.

Likewise, all 4e baseline clerics are the same. They can, FROM THERE, choose to make one another stand out.

I'm just dissapointed they don't stand out right from the start, as I would think your choice of alignment/deity should be *very* important. I can't quite grasp why clerics NEED to have a god of that god doesn't affect their baseline or even give them their powers.

I'm with Cirno on this one.

It's odd that Warlocks have to make a significant choice in which Pact they make, but a Cleric's divine devotion doesn't derive discernible differentiation.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Boarstorm]

I'm with Cirno on this one.

It's odd that Warlocks have to make a significant choice in which Pact they make, but a Cleric's divine devotion doesn't derive discernible differentiation.

Cheers, -- N

Think homebrew.

It's much easier to cobble together a few new feats than it is to put together individual "pacts" for each and every deity in your campaign setting.

So much so, I'm thinking, that it wouldn't really be feasible and you'd end up having to shoehorn your gods into the existing options.

 

[Cadfan]

This is pretty much retarded. Magic is the technology of D&D. If all the most brilliant minds of every race have spent thousands of years studying magic and haven't come up with better ways to do things, then Wizardry is a complete and utter waste of time.

Retarded is insisting that wizardry is the only form of magic in D&D, when obviously it is not. Apparently combat wizardry focuses around manipulation of elemental forces, plus a smattering from other areas of magic. Excellent. By not giving everything and the kitchen sink to one class, we open up the game for other classes.

Or in other words, your wizard must die so that my shadowcaster can live.