D&D 5E So Was That Z Fellow right?

[smbakeresq]

Those things are all very good, so I use them against the players. The Stone giant tossing rocks with SS from his 4 levels of fighter is a great idea, especially with his Shaman behind him with Bless running. The Elite Hobgoblin with 4 levels of ranger with archery and SS surprised the players.

The players didn’t really like the multi-attacking Orogs using Great Weapon Fighting and Great Weapon Mastery with their orc minions using help another action to give them advantage.

They really didn’t like being multiple Spirit Guardians fields (of crawling spiders) from multiple priestess of Lolth while under a fog cloud, but they got through it.

The options in SKT for giant tactics are hilarious, use them.

There is some stuff that probably needs some changes, but if you use them against you players they work well.

Try Age of Worms path conversion here, it gives a new meaning to DC 11 DEX saving throws.


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[Krachek]

Way way back in 2014 (around October IIRC) on the WOtC boards I pointed out a few things in 5E were OP and that certain things did not work that well. At the time a few posters disagreed with me and a few of them had the attitude that 5E was perfect etc- the new generation of edition warriors I suppose that I had already seen 3 times pr so already. I don't really have a favourite edition of D&D as such, the top 3 are probably 5E, 2E and B/X aka modern, options, simplicity. We were playing around twice a week at least with 5 games as a record, 7 players with 2 rotating DMs (so 1 DM+ 6 players). We used feats and multiclassing after playing Basic D&D and hit level 13/14 in both games fairly fast (2-3 months). My observations were.

1. Some feats are OP, Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Fighter would be on this list, I would probably add healer feat these days.

2. Feats in general break the game (in the PCs favour). Big offenders here are warcaster, resilient: con, and healer as they tens to negate the concentration mechanic and pacing of the gamer.

3. Dex is stupidly OP unless feats are used (assuming you are melee, there is still sharpshooter).

4. Bless was OP/broken.

5. The encounter guidelines did not work that well past level 10 or so (or 7 perhaps).

6. High level 5E was stupidly easy even ignoring the encounter guidelines with combats X5 deadly.

We did inadvertently stumble on some of the most powerful archetypes early on- light/life cleric, lore bard, diviner, paladins, battlemaster fighter but we also had war clerics, hunter rangers, rogues, champion fighters. We had magic weapons of course but early on most of them were from LMoP although I made the mistake of placing a +2 hand crossbow.

Now on ENworld and other sites the same complaints tend to come up again and again. So here we are 3 years later, was I right, wrong somewhere in the middle?

And what concrete solutions do you actually use to make your games better?

 

[CapnZapp]

And what concrete solutions do you actually use to make your games better?

That's worthy of a whole new thread.

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[DEFCON 1]

That's worthy of a whole new thread.

Heh... haven't we already had those threads thirteen ways to Sunday already, Capn?

 

[DEFCON 1]

Now on ENworld and other sites the same complaints tend to come up again and again. So here we are 3 years later, was I right, wrong somewhere in the middle?

Why do you care? Are you looking for a pat on the head?

 

[jaelis]

I would agree that the things you list are some of the more troublesome elements of 5e. And they were indeed recognized pretty quickly.

But does that signify much? Any game will have a few things that are the most troublesome, and they won't usually be hard to find. It seems like you are contending that these things are bad enough to require fixing. (And that they don't bring compensating goodness that makes them worth keeping.) That is a much more contentious point, I doubt there is any kind of consensus about it.

And I would personally say the most troublesome thing about the 5e rules is the ranger class not working very well.

(Also, I don't think I can agree that bless is much of a problem at all.)

 

[Nevvur]

Now on ENworld and other sites the same complaints tend to come up again and again. So here we are 3 years later, was I right, wrong somewhere in the middle?

Some people agree with you. That doesn't make you right anymore than it makes right the people who get along playing the game unphased by the complaints you list. They're opinions.

As it was put to me by my high school debate coach, there are 4 basic types of statements.

Convention: Something is right or wrong because we define it to be so. A field goal is worth 3 points (true statement of convention). Iambic pentameter has fifteen syllables per line (false statement of convention).
Fact: Right or wrong as a matter of observable reality. There is a tree in my front yard ( true statement of fact). Hillary Clinton is the POTUS (false statement of fact).
Preference: Cannot be right or wrong as they have no basis on fact or convention. Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate. I dislike the color red.
Opinion: A special type of preference with a basis on some fact or convention. The basis informs the preferences for the speaker, but not objectively for everyone as with facts, or innately as with conventions.

Discourse has a tendency to break down if someone mistakes a statement of opinion or preference, including their own, as a statement of fact or convention. I saw it a lot on the WotC forums. It's not so bad here, but it still comes up. By all means, continue to make your observations, but there's no right and wrong on any of the complaints you list.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Oh jeez I got sucked back in.

If I recall, Zardnar claimed that he "broke" 5e by "discovering" these things. I remember Crossbow Expert and Bless in particular.

First of all, he didn't discover doodly. He just made a big fuss on this particular forum about it.

Second, the game ain't broken. Yes, there are some things in the game that are more powerful than others.

But you know what? I go to various FLGS's and play in AL, and the vast majority of characters are not using Crossbows or Polearms or using all their spell slots to cast bless. And when some do, everybody still has fun.

What exactly is broken?

So, to answer your question: no. That Z fellow was correct in his observations, although slightly hysterical about it, but wrong in his conclusions. The sky did not fall.

 

[Parmandur]

Feats are pretty lame, just don't allow that variant option, or multiclassing. Problem, solved.

 

[cmad1977]

Basically if any of these things break your game it isn’t the game that’s broken.


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