D&D 5E So Was That Z Fellow right?

[CapnZapp]

I really don't feel like starting this whole math bonanza again... but you indicated that the precision only is used periodically, and not entirely reliably (if you need an extra +3 to hit and you roll a 1 on the d8...). This means that on a *per attack* basis, the boost is not that great, since most attacks it won't help!

It doesn't need to help the attacks that already hit; only those that miss.

Unlike other maneuvers Precision is free when you hit, since you don't use it.

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[CapnZapp]

In other words, balanced in actual play under standard adventuring conditions.

Wrong.

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[Parmandur]

Wrong.

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It seems to require both extreme min-maxing, and DM buy-in. So, eh, no biggie.

 

[Nick Hatfield]

SS/GWM certainly increase DPR by more than the other option available, but whenever I see people discuss them being OP they do so in unrealistic ways usually. You aren't going to only fight enemies with 14 AC, you won't always have advantage and a +2 magic weapon in every fight. In real games you don't know the AC of what you are fighting so things like Precision don't always work. I never see people factor in the inaccuracy of these attacks, which makes me question whether they want to fairly evaluate how much better they are or whether they prefer to just shout "OP" and "Wrong".

 

[FrogReaver]

SS/GWM certainly increase DPR by more than the other option available, but whenever I see people discuss them being OP they do so in unrealistic ways usually. You aren't going to only fight enemies with 14 AC, you won't always have advantage and a +2 magic weapon in every fight. In real games you don't know the AC of what you are fighting so things like Precision don't always work. I never see people factor in the inaccuracy of these attacks, which makes me question whether they want to fairly evaluate how much better they are or whether they prefer to just shout "OP" and "Wrong".

Then discuss it with me, because I use no magic weapons and look at 20 ac as well.

 

[Fanaelialae]

The only way to stop this kind of misunderstanding is to push the math.

If you make 3 attacks per turn (as the level 10 fighter I described does) then you will make approximately 24-36 attacks over 2 combat encounters. (I think we can both agree there).

If I use precision appropriately 5 times during those encounters I can expect it to turn 4 out of the 5 misses I use it on into hits. Of those 4 uses, each adds an average of 18.5 damage. That's 74 damage total over 8-12 rounds of combat. That's around 6-9 damage added per round by precision.

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the fighter makes 20 attacks over these encounters (they're a little easier than not) which allows us to assume that all numbers 1 thru 20 will be rolled.

Let's also say the AC is 16, and that the players are told this (not all DMs do, in which case it could take the players a round or two to suss out the exact AC even if they are paying attention to the rolls).


The CE + SS + precision makes 3 attacks with hand crossbows each round (not sure how he's reloading them, but I'll ignore that here). As you stated in your earlier post, he has +4 from proficiency, + 2 from archery, + 5 from Dexterity, and -5 from SS, for a total of +6 (55% chance to hit, before precision is factored in). He's 10th level, which gives him a d10 superiority die, and he will use this on precision if he misses by 5 or less (I know you said 4 or less, but that would leave one superiority die unused which would unfairly skew the math against your position).

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 10, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 207 total damage [(18.5 x 10) + 22].
On the roll of 9, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 8, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 7, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 6, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 5, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 4 thru 1 miss completely.

This results in an average of 14.05 per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 14, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 133 total damage [(18.5 x 6) + 22].
On the roll of 13, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 12, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 11, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 10, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 9, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 8 thru 1 miss.

This results in an average of 10.35 per attack.


Now we have a second battle master fighter, same as above except that he doesn't use SS or precision. In his case, because he doesn't take the SS penalty, he has a +11 to hit (80% chance to hit). Instead of precision he uses something like Distracting Strike, Goading Attack, or Trip Attack. Let's say he saves one of these uses for a crit (I think that's fair).

He hits on a 5 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 15), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 172.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 4 miss.

This results in an average of 8.625 damage per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He hits on a 9 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 11), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 138.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 8 miss.

This results in an average of 6.925 damage per attack.


So against an AC 16, the CE + SS + Precision fighter deals an average of 5.422 more damage per attack.

Against an AC of 20, he deals an average of 3.425 more damage per attack.


Whether or not that's OP I leave up to the individual.


However, there are a few other factors that we ought to consider.

1) This is a white room scenario. Assuming that the DM doesn't tell the players what a monster's AC is, getting within 4 is much harder (particularly for the first round or two). You may even expend precision on an attack that would otherwise have hit. I would assume that in a real world scenario, barring the DM just telling the players what the monster's AC is out of the gate, the disparity would be somewhat less.

2) This doesn't take into account the bonus group DPS that maneuvers like Trip Attack grant (via advantage). Tripping an enemy so that the rogue can sneak attack and not miss is certainly worth a few extra points of DPR. Since the second battle master didn't take Precision Attack, he has one more option than the other battle master (which adds to his utility in combat).

3) The second battle master didn't need to take SS, since he wasn't using it. Maybe he took Toughness for an extra 20 hp. He might have taken Alert so that he regularly wins initiative and doesn't lose his turn due to surprise. Perhaps he took Healer or Lucky or Ritual Caster. Regardless, I think we can all agree that the feat is worth something, even if we might differ as to precisely how much.

4) This is only an examination of a 20 round combat. However, Frogreaver posited 24 to 36 rounds. 36 is close to 40 so let's assume another 20 attacks without any maneuver dice.

Against AC 16, the first fighter deals 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit); 207 total damage [(18.5 x 10) + 22], for an average of 10.35 damage per attack.
Against AC 20, the first fighter deals deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit); 133 total damage [(18.5 x 6) + 22], for an average of 6.65 damage per attack.

Against AC 16, the second fighter deals 1d6 + 5 (2d6+5 for the crit); 139.5 total damage [(8.5 x 15) + 12], for an average of 6.975 damage per attack.
Against AC 20, the second fighter deals 1d6 + 5 (2d6+5 for the crit); 105.5 total damage [(8.5 x 11) + 12], for an average of 5.275 damage per attack.

For the latter 20 attacks, the first fighter deals an average of 3.375 more per attack against AC 16.
Against AC 20, he deals an average of 1.375 more per attack.

If we average the damage increase over 40 rounds:
The first fighter deals an average of 4.3985 more damage per attack against AC 16.
He deals an average of 2.4 more damage per attack against AC 20.


Now, it can't be denied that GWM and SS should have SOME benefit. They are feats after all. Is the above too much? Do the additional factors listed above sufficiently mitigate it? As I said before, I think that's up to the individual. In some games it may be, in others it might not.

 

[FrogReaver]

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the fighter makes 20 attacks over these encounters (they're a little easier than not) which allows us to assume that all numbers 1 thru 20 will be rolled.

Let's also say the AC is 16, and that the players are told this (not all DMs do, in which case it could take the players a round or two to suss out the exact AC even if they are paying attention to the rolls).


The CE + SS + precision makes 3 attacks with hand crossbows each round (not sure how he's reloading them, but I'll ignore that here). As you stated in your earlier post, he has +4 from proficiency, + 2 from archery, + 5 from Dexterity, and -5 from SS, for a total of +6 (55% chance to hit, before precision is factored in). He's 10th level, which gives him a d10 superiority die, and he will use this on precision if he misses by 5 or less (I know you said 4 or less, but that would leave one superiority die unused which would unfairly skew the math against your position).

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 10, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 207 total damage [(18.5 x 10) + 22].
On the roll of 9, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 8, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 7, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 6, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 5, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 4 thru 1 miss completely.

This results in an average of 14.05 per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He doesn't bother with precision for rolls 20 thru 14, because they hit without it. These attacks deal 1d6+15 damage (2d6+15 for the crit), for 133 total damage [(18.5 x 6) + 22].
On the roll of 13, he uses precision and hits automatically for an additional 18.5 damage.
On the 12, he uses precision but has a 10% chance of missing, resulting in 16.65 dmg.
On the 11, 20% miss chance, resulting in 14.8 dmg.
On the 10, 30% miss chance, resulting in 12.95 dmg.
On the 9, 40% miss chance, resulting in 11.1 dmg.
The 8 thru 1 miss.

This results in an average of 10.35 per attack.


Now we have a second battle master fighter, same as above except that he doesn't use SS or precision. In his case, because he doesn't take the SS penalty, he has a +11 to hit (80% chance to hit). Instead of precision he uses something like Distracting Strike, Goading Attack, or Trip Attack. Let's say he saves one of these uses for a crit (I think that's fair).

He hits on a 5 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 15), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 172.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 4 miss.

This results in an average of 8.625 damage per attack.


Against an AC of 20:

He hits on a 9 thru 20. These attacks deal 1d6 + 5 (8.5 dmg x 11), plus an additional 4d10 (22 dmg), plus the crit which is 2d6 + 2d10 + 5 (23 dmg), for a total of 138.5 dmg.
The 1 thru 8 miss.

This results in an average of 6.925 damage per attack.


So against an AC 16, the CE + SS + Precision fighter deals an average of 5.422 more damage per attack.

Against an AC of 20, he deals an average of 3.425 more damage per attack.


Whether or not that's OP I leave up to the individual.

I'll reply to the rest later but there's one thing I think that's going to confuse many people.

Duelist adds +2 damage per attack. The +3.425 Damage per attack you cite isn't the same kind of "+X damage per attack" as we are talking about with duelist. A better term for what you are calculating is "Expected Damage per Attack".

Duelist only adds about 1.2 or 1.4 Expected Damage per Attack against most AC values. Compared that with the +3.425 Expected damage per attack that you just calculated. In other words, if you really want to term it as damage per attack at least do the additional math to compare it to other damage per attack like effects so no one is confused. In our case your +3.425 Expected damage per attack would be closer to +5 Damage per attack.

Alternatively you could look at it as: the Expected damage per attack of a non-SS fighter came out to around 6.925 as calculated by you. +3.425 Expected damage translates into almost 50% more Expected Damage per Attack.

 

[FrogReaver]

For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that the fighter makes 20 attacks over these encounters (they're a little easier than not) which allows us to assume that all numbers 1 thru 20 will be rolled.

Let's also say the AC is 16, and that the players are told this (not all DMs do, in which case it could take the players a round or two to suss out the exact AC even if they are paying attention to the rolls).


The CE + SS + precision makes 3 attacks with hand crossbows each round (not sure how he's reloading them, but I'll ignore that here). As you stated in your earlier post, he has +4 from proficiency, + 2 from archery, + 5 from Dexterity, and -5 from SS, for a total of +6 (55% chance to hit, before precision is factored in). He's 10th level, which gives him a d10 superiority die, and he will use this on precision if he misses by 5 or less (I know you said 4 or less, but that would leave one superiority die unused which would unfairly skew the math against your position).

...............

4) This is only an examination of a 20 round combat. However, Frogreaver posited 24 to 36 rounds. 36 is close to 40 so let's assume another 20 attacks without any maneuver dice.

If you had followed my guidelines in part 1 instead of ignoring them to help me out there then in part 2 you would have still had superiority dice left and they would have allowed you to get through most of the 40 attacks.

(Caveat, it's not 20 rounds of combat and 40 rounds of combat, it's 20 and 40 attacks).

 

[FrogReaver]

1) This is a white room scenario. Assuming that the DM doesn't tell the players what a monster's AC is, getting within 4 is much harder (particularly for the first round or two). You may even expend precision on an attack that would otherwise have hit. I would assume that in a real world scenario, barring the DM just telling the players what the monster's AC is out of the gate, the disparity would be somewhat less.

A valid point. Though it's also not hard to estimate the AC of monsters with a good enough description of the creature by the DM. Then every attack made against such a creature gets you a little closer to it's actual AC. Also many times you fight the same monster more than once in a day. So once it's AC is found it's found for all time. Still it's valid to note, but I don't have anyway to accurately estimate how often this will be an issue and it will vary by campaign somewhat. From my personal experience, it's been very easy for me to use precision attack the way I desire to without knowing a monsters AC, though I have occasionly misjudged. I'm usually the guy trying to keep himself from calling out that an attack hit before the DM says it because I already know once I see anyones roll if it did or not.

2) This doesn't take into account the bonus group DPS that maneuvers like Trip Attack grant (via advantage). Tripping an enemy so that the rogue can sneak attack and not miss is certainly worth a few extra points of DPR. Since the second battle master didn't take Precision Attack, he has one more option than the other battle master (which adds to his utility in combat).

If we were talking about a melee battlemaster maybe (though I think trip attack is over estimated by most people). As a ranged battlemaster I'm not nearly as impressed with mentioning it anyways. It gets in the way of what i'm trying to do which is kill enemies from range. I can't think of any other maneuver that really ups group DPR other than that one. Maybe you could count commanders strike if you have a high level rogue in the party?

3) The second battle master didn't need to take SS, since he wasn't using it. Maybe he took Toughness for an extra 20 hp. He might have taken Alert so that he regularly wins initiative and doesn't lose his turn due to surprise. Perhaps he took Healer or Lucky or Ritual Caster. Regardless, I think we can all agree that the feat is worth something, even if we might differ as to precisely how much.

He still wants sharpshooter just to ignore cover. Otherwise his damage is going to be even lower than expected a decent amount of the time. And he wants it for the 120ft range with his hand crossbows (I'm assuming your alternate build is still taking Crossbow Expertise?)

 

[Fanaelialae]

I'll reply to the rest later but there's one thing I think that's going to confuse many people.

Duelist adds +2 damage per attack. The +3.425 Damage per attack you cite isn't the same kind of "+X damage per attack" as we are talking about with duelist. A better term for what you are calculating is "Expected Damage per Attack".

Duelist only adds about 1.2 or 1.4 Expected Damage per Attack against most AC values. Compared that with the +3.425 Expected damage per attack that you just calculated. In other words, if you really want to term it as damage per attack at least do the additional math to compare it to other damage per attack like effects so no one is confused. In our case your +3.425 Expected damage per attack would be closer to +5 Damage per attack.

Alternatively you could look at it as: the Expected damage per attack of a non-SS fighter came out to around 6.925 as calculated by you. +3.425 Expected damage translates into almost 50% more Expected Damage per Attack.

That's correct.

If you had followed my guidelines in part 1 instead of ignoring them to help me out there then in part 2 you would have still had superiority dice left and they would have allowed you to get through most of the 40 attacks.

(Caveat, it's not 20 rounds of combat and 40 rounds of combat, it's 20 and 40 attacks).

Unless I misunderstood you, you said to use Precision Attack when within 4. If I had followed your instructions, there would have been one more miss in the first 20 attacks and one more hit in the second 20. It would not have changed the average by much.

I mean, you can try to save PA for only attacks that miss by 1 (or whatever), but due to the randomness of the dice in some fights you might never hit that mark, and your superiority dice would go wasted as a result. If this build takes a short rest without using all dice, you've either been exceptionally lucky or you've failed to maximize your damage (IMO). Even within 5 gives you better than 50% odds of hitting (although I think your within 4 is a good rule of thumb).

Yeah, my bad, I misspoke regarding the rounds. It should have been attacks. It was a long post and I was doing other things in between, so I got a little mixed up regarding terminology.