Sons of Gruumsh (spoiler alert)

[MerricB]

It's comments like this that make me angry. I agree that the stronghold has an almost overwhelming force of orcs in it, but any PC group whose approach to it is to run in, kill, the flee and heal should be spanked.

Tell us about how your group handled it, then.

 

[Lancelot]

Played this shortly after it came out. My credentials: 20+ years (mostly DM'ing); have played 80+ consecutive 3.0 and 3.5 sessions without losing a character; other players in my group have minimum 5 years experience each.

Having said that, I'm totally with Merric. If your DM is playing it smartly, it is very difficult for a non-optimized party to take out the entire fortress in a single raid. Our party was average 5th level; gnome conjurer (me), shifter barbarian, elf bard, human druid. The elf bard had an atypical "non-combat" build, but the other three were reasonably buff... although only 25-point buy and relatively few magic items.

We entered the fortress under cover of illusions and silence. Listened and searched every portal before entering; used familiars to scout; used disguises to look like orcs. Ultimately, though, no PC can be all things. Not everyone in the party has a good Move Silent skill (nor should they); not everyone had a good Disguise skill; not everyone could speak Orc.

We took out two rooms by surprise, but we simply failed our initiative rolls in the third room (and/or were heard by other foes some distance away). A quick yell later, and the entire fortress was alerted. From then on, it became brutal. The DM played the orcs smart: they pursued, sent forces to cut off our escape routes, got a wyvern in the air, cast divination spells, the works. I challenge any 5th level party to have an easy time of beating scores of orcs (supported by ogres, spellcasters, etc) when they're on the orcs' home turf and the DM is playing them to the hilt.

I guess it might have been different if the party was 90% rogues, or if the DM was giving us more than a free ride. I puzzle over statements like: "Smart players should be able to take out the fortress easy." I'd counter with: "Smart DMs should be able to turn this place into a death trap".

 

[Phoenix]

Tell us about how your group handled it, then.

I just find it funny how people see the module as little more than, urrrg, Orcs, must kill them... I freely admit that I'm yet to run it, however have run many similar games to it in the past. There is every little need to take the aforementioned tactics in this type of adventure, though I can clearly see how people enjoy this method of play, engineering the game so all of the orcs need to be killed? When did these monsters become little more than a means to a level?

Orc 1: Wow, so I heard Larry and Barry over in room 18 got sliced to pieces by some attackers.
Orc 2: Yeah, they've been camping out in the wilderness somewhere and making strikes of a night. We've sent patrols out, but they either don't return or find nothing, they reckon they've got an elven ranger pickin' them off.
Orc 1: They've killed, waht, sixty of our troops already?
Orc 2: Yeah.
Orc 1: So, what say we take a long vacation to somewhere else but here?
Orc 2: Nah, there's two of us and four of them. We're mighty orc warriors, we can take them!
Orc 1: Oh, oh yeah...

 

[MerricB]

I just find it funny how people see the module as little more than, urrrg, Orcs, must kill them...

It's funny how I don't see it that way. I'm just stating it as a fact of the adventure: the Orcs are between you and your goal. I suppose you might trick them to letting you get past, but it's not going to work a second time, as you try to get out.

This is not a 10th level party we're talking about here. This is a 4th level party, for which the orcs are a serious threat, and has really limited resources for dealing with them.

Consider the rescue of Leia from the Death Star... Sons of Gruumsh is basically that scenario, but much more difficult. Han & Luke might be able to bluff their way in, but getting out is another thing altogether. And, if they haven't neutralised the orcs on the upper levels, then they're not going to.

Cheers!

 

[Phoenix]

It's funny how I don't see it that way. I'm just stating it as a fact of the adventure: the Orcs are between you and your goal. I suppose you might trick them to letting you get past, but it's not going to work a second time, as you try to get out.

This is not a 10th level party we're talking about here. This is a 4th level party, for which the orcs are a serious threat, and has really limited resources for dealing with them.

Consider the rescue of Leia from the Death Star... Sons of Gruumsh is basically that scenario, but much more difficult. Han & Luke might be able to bluff their way in, but getting out is another thing altogether. And, if they haven't neutralised the orcs on the upper levels, then they're not going to.

Cheers!

Hang on, I'm going to edit this post completely, which I rarely do. You're using the Death Star as comparison? So...Han should've killed all the Stormtroopers...

...

...of course! How stupid of me!

I'm not saying that a great deal of frontal battle isn't required, or that 4th level people can clear it in one rush. I'm saying that there are more tactics available in the adventure than killing them all. In fact it should be impossible because eventually what remain of the orcs would flee the module completely.

 

[GwydapLlew]

I guess it might have been different if the party was 90% rogues, or if the DM was giving us more than a free ride. I puzzle over statements like: "Smart players should be able to take out the fortress easy." I'd counter with: "Smart DMs should be able to turn this place into a death trap".

Oh, it's definitely got a TPK potential. I'm not disputing that. Heck, I'd go so far as to say "dumb DMs should be able to turn this place into a death trap."

If you read the tactics, though, you'll notice a few things.

Several of the orcs are in the tavern, relaxing. If they don't make their Listen checks, they don't come rushing out.

The archers are spread around the top level. There is a thick fog that prevents them from seeing very far - it's spelled out in the adventure that they use their Listen checks almost exclusively. The wyvern can be fooled by a decent disguise, and so can be avoided. The Zhents don't want to fight. Four of the more effective nameless orcs on this level have a 10% per round to turn on each other.

It can be done. Heck, something as straightforward as a silence cast by the cleric (a tactic mentioned in the adventure) goes a long way towards making it easier.

It can also be a bloodbath. There are fifty orcs on that first level. Fifty. Five-O. A 4th-level party could easily be wiped out by that many. I'm not an advocate for 'the monsters sit in the room and guard the pie' encounters, but this upper level is set up to be taken out in small chunks. (I'm not advocating the 'blow your spells then rest' routine; I'm advocating the 'sneak attack + silence + move silently = dead orc warrior 1's' method.)

As always, YMMV. The OP has a party optimized for stealth and sneak attacks - I wouldn't say a group of fighters if plate can go this route - and that's why I've been giving the input that I have.

 

[MerricB]

We took out two rooms by surprise, but we simply failed our initiative rolls in the third room (and/or were heard by other foes some distance away). A quick yell later, and the entire fortress was alerted. From then on, it became brutal. The DM played the orcs smart: they pursued, sent forces to cut off our escape routes, got a wyvern in the air, cast divination spells, the works. I challenge any 5th level party to have an easy time of beating scores of orcs (supported by ogres, spellcasters, etc) when they're on the orcs' home turf and the DM is playing them to the hilt.

Ow, ow, ow!

My party did one thing right: they killed the wyvern as almost the first thing they did. That said, they then discovered how much fun it is to be chased by the inhabitants of an orc stronghold...

There was a wonderful moment as they tried to run: the halfling druid was the last, with his animal companion (a wolf). They had to jump off the (10') cliff to escape, and the wolf didn't want to go. The halfling just kept failing his Handle Animal roll to "push" the wolf into jumping. It just kept looking at him and thinking "why do I want to jump?"

(Luckily, he eventually made the roll in time, and the rubble had slowed the orcs enough so they could get away).

Two PCs died during the adventure.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

It can be done. Heck, something as straightforward as a silence cast by the cleric (a tactic mentioned in the adventure) goes a long way towards making it easier.

Definitely. It's a really great adventure in that regard: good tactics by the players make the adventure a lot easier.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Hang on, I'm going to edit this post completely, which I rarely do. You're using the Death Star as comparison? So...Han should've killed all the Stormtroopers...

The comparison is that Luke & Han had Obi-Wan Kenobi, who is something like a 20th level character. They had it much easier! At the point it all went pear-shaped ("Uh, we had a slight weapons malfunction, but uh... everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?") they managed to survive for a while, but the only way they eventually got out was by Obi-Wan sacrificing himself.

Oh, and the Death Star has lots of ways to get around. There's one way down in SoG.

In fact it should be impossible because eventually what remain of the orcs would flee the module completely.

Well, one hopes so! The chief problem is that there are three leaders in the adventure, two on the lower levels. They should be able to rally the orcs to stay until they're defeated... at which point the adventure is completed.

Cheers!

 

[Lancelot]

It can also be a bloodbath. There are fifty orcs on that first level. Fifty. Five-O. A 4th-level party could easily be wiped out by that many. I'm not an advocate for 'the monsters sit in the room and guard the pie' encounters, but this upper level is set up to be taken out in small chunks. (I'm not advocating the 'blow your spells then rest' routine; I'm advocating the 'sneak attack + silence + move silently = dead orc warrior 1's' method.)

Yeah, that's kind of the problem we had. We went in (I think) fairly smart and had some early success. We weren't even trying to clear the place; just take a few prisoners and find out the layout. Unfortunately, once the alarm went out, the DM mobilized the entire fortress. As noted in my previous post, there's not much you can do when at least one of the PCs was toting a -5 Move Silent and -2 Disguise... and you only need one PC to fail for the whole party to be busted, unless you split the party.

There were no more "small chunks on the upper level". As with Merric's experience, we had a mutha-load of guys chasing us from room-to-room, with others circling to get in front of us. We lost our shifter barbarian in one of those encounters. He charged down one of the groups alone (around a dozen orcs, with his AC 16 and maybe 40 hp left), screaming at the rest of us to run past. He took something like eight attacks of opportunity just to give us a window to flee. He was still fighting the next round when an orc sergeant critted him with a greataxe. Ouch.

Miraculously, we actually completed the module... although not without the help of some orc "friendlies" who were also in the fortress to mess with their tribe's rival chieftain. Not owning the module, I still don't know if this was part of the module "as written" or whether the DM finally took pity on us...