Sons of Gruumsh (spoiler alert)

[GwydapLlew]

We took out two rooms by surprise, but we simply failed our initiative rolls in the third room (and/or were heard by other foes some distance away). A quick yell later, and the entire fortress was alerted. From then on, it became brutal. The DM played the orcs smart: they pursued, sent forces to cut off our escape routes, got a wyvern in the air, cast divination spells, the works. I challenge any 5th level party to have an easy time of beating scores of orcs (supported by ogres, spellcasters, etc) when they're on the orcs' home turf and the DM is playing them to the hilt.

Hrm. The only thing I can really say to counter your statements (and there's nothing wrong with running the adventure as you described!) is that Thrull and Jurrg are busy preparing the Bloodspear Ritual and (as written) only interrupt that if the PCs alert the bottom levels.

Each of the lower levels is isolated from the rest by the sounds of rushing water - it states in the adventure that the water blocks all sounds of combat.

My reading of the adventure is that the upper level generally handles everything that comes their way, only alerting the lower levels if the PCs rout them downwards. The lower levels, if alerted, "dig in" and prepare to hold off the PCs as long as possible. Thrull wants that ritual performed ASAP, and he should (by my reading) only interrupt it under the most disastrous circumstances for his troops.

I don't consider that running the orcs in a substandard way; I consider that utilizing the adventure as is. Yes, it can all go to pieces with one bad combat - I do like the Star Wars analogy. It can also work amazingly well. A band of heroes taking out an entire fortress of orcs is incredibly heroic and is not an easy task. I can't wait to hear what happens to Felon's party.

Miraculously, we actually completed the module... although not without the help of some orc "friendlies" who were also in the fortress to mess with their tribe's rival chieftain. Not owning the module, I still don't know if this was part of the module "as written" or whether the DM finally took pity on us...

It is part of the module, although it leaves it up to DM fiat to determine exactly how to handle it. That is one of the things I like about the adventure - there are a few outs for parties that get in over their heads (feuding orc tribes, the raven familiar, having Thrull be out of his armor unless you give him buttloads of time, etc.)

 

[Mighty Veil]

About to run SoG too

I too am about to run this adventure. My version of the adventure has been modified by myself. I originally intended to run it in a homebrewed Middle-earth-like campaign world with my previous group. Now with my new group, in a different homebrewed world. I don't recall the changes I made. I'll be following this thread for running tips (Merrick's cave idea for resting is a good one).

I need the characters at 4th. All might not be it, so next week it's a filler adventure first before I start Sons. But I have named-dropped "the Sons" in the last adventure (50% my adventure/ 50% Goodman's Silver Mines adventure). This will be the first WTC adventure I've ever run (my new DM'ing thing is running modified printed adventures. After Sons it's the classic Desert Nomads modules).

My players' characters currently:

1. Human Beguiler 3rd NE
2. Human Healer 3rd NG
3. Human Warmage 3rd N
4. Jotunn (homebrew race) Warrior/Fighter 1/2 N
5. Nagrah (hombrew race) Expert/Shadowcaster [this PC hasn't been able to make it to a game since the first session where characters were made]
6. ? [possible new player]
7. Elf Duskblade 2nd NG NPC (stand in when a player can't make it)
8. Elf Marshal 2nd NG NPC (stand in when a player can't make it)

 

[Felon]

A band of heroes taking out an entire fortress of orcs is incredibly heroic and is not an easy task. I can't wait to hear what happens to Felon's party.

Man, they are so dead.

Two characters are rogues. The others are real meatheads. Note that a swashbuckler, while, nimble, is not an especially stealthy character.

I have no idea what the ideal party would be for SoG. If you have a caster-heavy party, you have a party that's going to need to rest at some point. If you have rogues, then your staying power takes a hit once the fight begins in earnest. If you have fighters, then it's a mosh pit from the get-go.

The big hump is dealing with Vhazor, the wyvern, and their support from their sergeants and the ogre. And all of that has the potential to come right down on the PC's heads, more or less all together. Obviously, I'd take some steps to prevent that, but there's only so much you spoonfeed grown-ups before they pick up on it and realize I'm chucking granny shots.

The wyvern's not really an essential component, other than it breaks up the monotony of killing nothing but orcs. I suspect I'll change it to a lower CR monster creature. Suggestions welcome.

 

[GwydapLlew]

The wyvern's not really an essential component, other than it breaks up the monotony of killing nothing but orcs. I suspect I'll change it to a lower CR monster creature.
Suggestions welcome.

Make it a well-trained dire boar? The scouting outpost has one, so it could be the schtick of the local orc tribe.

 

[MerricB]

I have no idea what the ideal party would be for SoG.

Fighter, Rogue, Incarnate, Warlock, Dragon Shaman and Warmage.

For those interested, my party was:
Human Bard/Druid/Rogue, Azurin Totemist, Azurin Incarnate, Dwarf Soulknife, Human Scout, Halfling Druid/Wizard

In their first expedition, they crept through the hole in the wall, did some scouting, killed the Wyvern, and then ran from the resulting commotion.

In their second expedition, they crept into the guest quarters, slew the emissaries, and then attacked the orc chief in his hall. The totemist died in the encounter, but otherwise they played *very* well, and really caught the orcs off guard.

At this point, various orc patrols were scouring the land for them. That "cave" they were in they'd found through use of the Survival skill. The orcs didn't find them... but instead a few elves that were in the vicinity. One elf survived, but was captured and taken prisoner. The PCs encountered the orc patrol, slew it, and rescued the elf. Hello, new PC! (Elf Soulborn).

The third expedition found the top level mostly unguarded (the orcs were out looking for the PCs, after all!) and they penetrated the dungeons, making their way to the third level before expending too many of their resources and retreating.

At this point, the orcs found their hideout! The PCs fled towards the nearby Suss Forest (I'd placed this adventure in the Pomarj of the World of Greyhawk), where they used a wand of web they'd recently acquired to make pursuit a lot harder, and then came across a friendly band of centaurs that offered aid.

The fourth expedition allowed them to reach the final dungeon level and slay the orogs and rescue the prisoners... but both the elf and the halfling died in the final battle (mainly due to a miscommunication with the dwarf, who had been providing them with protection).

If I'd wanted to, I could have made things a lot harder for the PCs, but that doesn't make for an entertaining game where there's a TPK every session. What orc reinforcements there were didn't cover the losses, and if there's a lot of ground to cover, searching by orc patrols isn't going to be so effective. (The good Survival check of the ranger ensured that the party's hideout was far enough away so that the orcs wouldn't find it easily).

The "cave" was, of course, inspired by Steading of the Hill Giant Chief. In the introductory text to that adventure, we can find, "It is assumed that the party has safely arrived at a spot near the giants' stronghold - a small cave, well hidden, where they can be assured of being undetected... If the party decides to retire between forays against the Steading, they may be assured of relative safety at the hidden cave base camp - provided they take moderate precautions not to leave a plain trail or be followed to this sanctuary." There's a lot of similarities between the two adventures!

Cheers!

 

[gribble]

Yeah, that's kind of the problem we had. We went in (I think) fairly smart and had some early success. We weren't even trying to clear the place; just take a few prisoners and find out the layout. Unfortunately, once the alarm went out, the DM mobilized the entire fortress.

I'm the DM in question, and it was a good plan. The main problems you guys had (from memory - it's been a while now since I ran it) where:
1) Bad luck. Poor stealth rols, one bad guy getting killed just outside the area of a silence spell, happening to strike the visitors to the fortress (the Zhents and mountain orcs, rather than actual inhabitants), the crit from the sergeant that took out the shifter at just the wrong time, etc.
2) The fact that once some orcs were alerted (the fortress did mobilise in stages, as per the module), you guys pressed on with the mission, resulting in you guys basically running through/past more and more guards and hence bringing more and more of the orcs into the fight. By the time you finally did decide to hole up and wait out the storm, pretty much the whole fortress was equipped, on high alert, and hunting you down (at least the top level - the main bad guys were still holed up underground).

It's a good module, IMO, and can - and pretty much has to - be taken with strategies other than "kick in the door and kill them all". It's just that once things start going bad for you, it can turn pear shaped real quick...

Miraculously, we actually completed the module... although not without the help of some orc "friendlies" who were also in the fortress to mess with their tribe's rival chieftain. Not owning the module, I still don't know if this was part of the module "as written" or whether the DM finally took pity on us...

That was a part of the module - or rather, it was a hook in the module that I fudged a little and you guys took good advantage of - from memory someone pulled out a whopper of a diplomacy or intimidate check.

 

[paradox42]

I have no idea what the ideal party would be for SoG.

Admittedly I don't own the module, so take this with a grain of salt- but I have to concur with Merrick on one point. The first thing I thought upon reading the above descriptions of the fortress was "man, what a great module to use a Warlock in!"

A 4th level Warlock has a 2d6 damage ranged touch attack usable at will, once per round, has three invocations (spell-like abilities also usable at will, with no daily limit), DR (admittedly not all that great against orcs with their high STR scores), and if properly built (high CHA, maxed-out Use Magic Device) can use any wand or scroll without bothering with the skill check (Deceive Item lets them take 10 under any circumstance, no matter how stressful). Now, the Invocations available to pick from aren't spectacular, but my choices for a setup like this would be Miasmic Cloud (like a half-radius Fog Cloud that fatigues creatures other than the Warlock who enter it unless they make Fort saves), Spiderwalk (Spider Climb at will- stay out of melee that way), and perhaps Summon Swarm (use the spell at will- the need to concentrate on it hurts a bit, but you can create really nice distractions this way).

Emphasize staying out of melee and use sniper tactics, and equip with a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and you should be good to go. A wyvern would, of course, be a huge problem, but that's what other party members are for isn't it?

 

[Felon]

Make it a well-trained dire boar? The scouting outpost has one, so it could be the schtick of the local orc tribe.

This suggestion convinced me to revisit the wyvern's stat block. Holy geez....

Full Attack: Sting +10 melee (1d6+4 plus poison) and bite +8 melee (2d8+4) and 2 wings +8 melee (1d8+2) and 2 talons +8 melee (2d6+4)

Ker-slam! Granted, a wyvern can only use its talons with a flyby attack, but geez...The 2d6 Con from the stinger poison would almost certainly send characters packing. Hit point damage is one thing, but 4th-level characters aren't equipped to deal with heavy ability damage.

 

[GwydapLlew]

Ker-slam! Granted, a wyvern can only use its talons with a flyby attack, but geez...The 2d6 Con from the stinger poison would almost certainly send characters packing. Hit point damage is one thing, but 4th-level characters aren't equipped to deal with heavy ability damage.

True, true. Not to sound like a broken record...that's what the stealth is for. Ideally, the PCs either kill it while it is still sleeping, sneak pasts it, or encounter it with Vhazror is the throne room. The last option is the hardest overall, but it limits the wyvern the most.

52 hit points sounds like a lot, but it goes away rather quickly in the party concentrates on it.

Yeah. For your party, I'd probably say replace the wyvern with something a little less nasty.

 

[Felon]

OK, so here's how it went down:

They encountered the half-orc Havarak, who volunteered to act as their guide to Xul Jarak (for a small fee). Instead of pitching the manticore encounter at them, I went ahead and had the wyvern go out for a night's hunting. It was dispatched without much ado.

Once arriving in the vicinity of Xul Jarak, they opted for the disguise route. A handful of hapless orcs donated their raiments to the cause--posthumously of course. The party got through the gate. Fearing that the kenku would not pass for much of an orc, they had him brought in as a prisoner. Vhazaar called forward the party's nominal leader (the party rogue) along with the prisoner, and began asking the two some pointed questions. Then he belted the kenku with the flat of his blade and told the rogue to finish the job. Thus begain the rolling of initiative.

Now, the party might well have died here with Vhazaar, the ogre, the sergeants, brutes, archers, berserkers, and warriors amassed in the courtyard (as per the reaction SoG prescribes for PC's attempting to enter as ersatz orcs) if it were not for a new party member--a 4th-level sorcerer with web. That held Vhazaar and many of the others down, and the party tore into the rest. Especially effective was the polearm fighter with Combat Expertise and Deft Opportuinist. The big problem was that A) in adopting the disguises, they had to don crappy armor, and B) the party's chief damage dealer (Cleric/Barbarian) had a pitiful AC anyway. Reduced to 12 after raging, he kept taking hit after hit. And being the party's only divine caster, he had nobody to prop him up. He died.

When Vhazaar finally got loose from the web and flew into a rage, the swashbuckler and rogue made good use of Combat Expertise to avoid getting nailed, and wore him down over successive rounds. After all was said and done, there was one casualty, and one utterly depleted sorcerer.

A quick search of the fortress' first level indicated they had practically cleared it out. The one big blunder came when the rogue saw the gleaming red gem in the statue of Gruumsh's eye. He checked for traps, but that didn't help him detect the curse of the eye. A failed Will save resulted in a sulking rogue who felt that a -4 penalty utterly ruined the character. insisting that he had to head back to town to have this problem curse removed post-haste.

After numerous attempts to rid himself of the curse and convince the DM that the best thing for everyone would be if the problem just went away, the party finally pressed on, at which point they encountered the Zhent priest and his guard. I found it unbelievable that it genuinely didn't occur to the rogue that the priest might provide his salvation. After antagonizing the Zhents repeatedly, it was finally pointed out to him, at which time the gem (worth 5000 gp, though it remained unappraised) was offered as compensation. The Zhents accepted the deal, content to show some profit for this fiasco as well as depart with their skins intact.

They also killed the Roving Eye mountain orcs. One they had captured and tried to interrogat it, but he knew little and was too feral to expect anything but death. Which he got.

It was obvious the party was dumbfounded that such a huge encounter would take place so early on. They swung back and forth from raucous laugther to surly frustration. I probably should've stopped once the rogue got cursed so he got react with renewed gusto the next session.