Sorcerer, spellbook, scribe scroll

[irdeggman]

I've always considered most damage spells to be meh, and never take more than a handful.
You underestimate the power of a well placed illusion.

Nope, illusions rock, but there are a lot of creatures immune to them; undead, plants (not all that common but still), oozes, constructs.

If you wanted earlier options you could have asked for them directly.

As is, you gave me a level 20 sorcerer's spells known and asked me to give examples of higher level spells doing the work of lower level ones.

Sorry since you were picking spells I made the assumption that you were doing the leg work to produce as low level a spell to accomplish the task as possible in order to mazximize the diversity in the sorcerers spell list - my bad.

Lower level ways to get utility spells come from Summon Monster spells,Lesser Planar Binding, and Polymorph. Happy?

Actually you will end needing fairly high level summon monster spell to gain any good spell use from them.

Alter Self is a buff, and more versatile than Invisibility. Since it's one of the most powerful second level spells ever, I do not share your opinion that it is somehow causing the character to "give up" something.

I don't think alter self is near as powerful as you seem to think. Also invisibilty can be cast on someone else also - like say the sneak attacking rogue.

You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.

You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype

You also have to draw the scroll, which is not going to be an immediate action.

Which is why I said you would already have had to have the scroll out to gain the imediate casting time effect - but it is better to use a wizard spell slot to have it already prepared instead.

What are you on about? I only talked about Limited Wish in that sentence. Where are you getting the 9th level spell Wish from?

misread it my bad.

Does the opposite hold true as well? Ie, if the DM is a clod, then no amount of Comprehending Languages will get you the information you need?

no duh - everything depends on the DM to make it fit and have some use.

Hey I've got an idea why don't you make a build to prove your point.

Let's say a 5th level character.

Let's compare which has more utility abilities:

a 5th level sorcerer or a wizard 1/ sorcerer 4.

 

[Dandu]

Nope, illusions rock, but there are a lot of creatures immune to them; undead, plants (not all that common but still), oozes, constructs.

You're not being creative.
Note that undead and constructs are, for example, mindless. If you create the illusion of a wall, they aren't going to know it isn't real. And that you're in there.

Actually you will end needing fairly high level summon monster spell to gain any good spell use from them.

Once again, SMIII, Coure Eladrin.

I don't think alter self is near as powerful as you seem to think.

Follow the link. Tell me if what you can get out of Alter Self is on par with other second level spells.

Also invisibilty can be cast on someone else also - like say the sneak attacking rogue.

Rogue doesn't need to be invisible to sneak attack if you have flankers (summons) or the enemy is blind (Glitterdust)

Hey I've got an idea why don't you make a build to prove your point.

Let's say a 5th level character.

Let's compare which has more utility abilities:

a 5th level sorcerer or a wizard 1/ sorcerer 4.

More pertinent to this discussion are the abilities of a 6th level sorcerer compared to a sorcerer 5/wizard 1

 

[irdeggman]

Once again, SMIII, Coure Eladrin.

I would stick to core only for this discussion - too many permutations otherwise and too many books aren't allowed at all tables (especially the Book of Exalted Deeds)

Rogue doesn't need to be invisible to sneak attack if you have flankers (summons) or the enemy is blind (Glitterdust)

Did I ever insinuate that it was the only way to get him to be able to sneak attack?

An invisible rouge has a much better time sneak attacking (at least his first attack) than via other means. His target is denied Dex bonus to AC and the rogue also gains a +2 to hit (just by being invisible)

More pertinent to this discussion are the abilities of a 6th level sorcerer compared to a sorcerer 5/wizard 1

All right lets use a 6th level character as a baseline (that way the sorcerer can get 3rd level spells. I don't know what the reason so many people like "evil" characters though.

Let's use core only to keep it simple.

As far as the wizard's "learned" spells - technically he could know all 1st level spells, but due to the price of adding them to his spell book - why don't we say he has learned or found 5 new ones per character level. He does know all 0-level spells though.

 

[Dandu]

I would stick to core only for this discussion - too many permutations otherwise and too many books aren't allowed at all tables (especially the Book of Exalted Deeds)

Though this means that your conclusions only really apply to a kind of game very few people play.

Did I ever insinuate that it was the only way to get him to be able to sneak attack?

Just pointing out that you can help your friends even if you can't buff them.

An invisible rouge has a much better time sneak attacking (at least his first attack) than via other means. His target is denied Dex bonus to AC and the rogue also gains a +2 to hit (just by being invisible)

What happens when the enemy is prone, or invisible?

All right lets use a 6th level character as a baseline (that way the sorcerer can get 3rd level spells. I don't know what the reason so many people like "evil" characters though.

Him being Evil has no bearing on anything in this discussion.

As far as the wizard's "learned" spells - technically he could know all 1st level spells, but due to the price of adding them to his spell book - why don't we say he has learned or found 5 new ones per character level. He does know all 0-level spells though.

Here's my question.
If it's a low magic setting, how do you get 5 first level spells per character level?
If it's a high or medium magic setting, how do you maintain your advantage over the pure sorcerer since he can just buy the scrolls?